Hype Handbook For The Rest Of Us

Video, Audio, Transcript Follow Below

Author of the best-seller, The Hype Handbook, Michael F. Schein discusses the methods used by cult leaders, propagandists, and other manipulators, so you can both protect yourself and use their tactics for good.

Why should they be the only ones with such power to influence?

Honest business people, artists, coaches, and consultants should also have a fair chance, but we couldn’t compete with them… until now!

Video Interview

Audio Interview

Transcript

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Justin Donne: hey this is justin from justin answer, and we are here as cultural creative seeking to fulfill our human potential that’s the whole tagline that’s the whole mission that’s the whole purpose and on that note, I have a.

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Justin Donne: author of renowned here named.

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Justin Donne: Michael F shine now he wrote a book called the hype handbook now before anybody gets over excited and says what is that all about hype, what are you talking about.

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Justin Donne: Because you know cultural creatives we’re all about real we’re all about having you know real things, there is a very important reason for it because.

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Justin Donne: There is, of course, the people out there who use these techniques for evil let’s just say.

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Justin Donne: But why not be able to leverage the same techniques for a good purpose let’s say for a.

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Justin Donne: A charity, a good cause that you’re running like I don’t know cats protection is near and dear to my heart, because I love cats, as you know, so why not be able to leverage those techniques.

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Justin Donne: For good there’s a couple more reasons, though, why he’s here today and i’m going to ask him about this, and hopefully he’ll be able to know, and that is that.

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Justin Donne: If you know these techniques let’s say you’re not into business at all you’re just you know you’re just chillin at home, you should still read the book, because if you know these things.

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Justin Donne: And it’s like a protective coating around you then all of a sudden, you can spot it when it’s being done to you in the media, or by politicians or by propagandists or whoever it is.

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Justin Donne: And that doesn’t mean that you’re immune to it, it doesn’t mean that you ignore it, or you don’t like music anymore, but what it means is you can now make a choice you can say.

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Justin Donne: I still like that it’s still awesome i’ve certainly done that, or you can say hmm they’re using those techniques and they’re a bit slimy so you can stay away from them so.

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Justin Donne: Welcome to the show Michael I don’t know if you thought of that ancillary benefit of a protective coating by learning these methods, but.

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Justin Donne: let’s talk about that and much more welcome.

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Michael Schein: thanks for having me yeah I mean not only did I think of the benefit, and one of the reasons I wrote the book was because this thing that i’m calling hype, which will discuss.

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Michael Schein: really just has a lot to do with how human beings and groups respond to stimuli and for a variety of reasons, a lot of the scummy people are better at it.

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Michael Schein: And it just really bugged me that I was seeing all of these people hopping garbage and and convincing people to go around with it, while all of the people, creating great.

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Michael Schein: creative work great causes great businesses struggle with it so much, I really wanted to make the case that not only can you protect yourself against the bad guys.

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Michael Schein: But you can sort of retool those strategies in a very ethical way and I honestly that was my moral imperative for writing the book that became very, very important to me, especially with the latest sort of things we’ve been seeing going on in the news and whatnot and.

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Justin Donne: And that’s, the reason I was drawn to your book and that I read it, and then I reached out to you, you, you know it’s for disclosure, you did not come to me through an agent through you didn’t reach it, you didn’t come to me through any of those channels.

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Justin Donne: Like some some people do, although, as most people will realize my podcast is not this stressed out weekly or bi weekly thing because.

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Justin Donne: I don’t want to have to fill these slots, with just anybody and just splatter someone on there because he’s willing to come on and blather on on the podcast I really want to find.

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Justin Donne: People who have significance, who have a high impact, I believe in, which is why I wanted to at least read most of your book I haven’t finished it I apologize, but read, most of it before having you on here.

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Justin Donne: Because it’s so important to me and there’s but there’s another reason I wanted you on here and it’s something we can talk about a little bit, and that is that.

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Justin Donne: There is someone out there, I think he calls himself the contra printer and he started this thing where he’s basically doing an expose a of the techniques of.

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Justin Donne: calls the contra printers now I happen to know the man who designed and originated the format.

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Justin Donne: That this guy is saying, if you see people using this format, it means they’re a con artist.

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Justin Donne: Now there’s a fallacy in this young man’s law and I admire the fact that Mr entrepreneur is trying to expose people who are taking advantage of people and ripping them off.

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Justin Donne: But there’s a fallacy and his logic, and that is that just because someone is using those techniques, does it mean that they are a con artist, maybe all current artists use that technique, but just because the technique is in use doesn’t mean there’s a con going on.

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Michael Schein: I should also say, I mean this is going to be controversial, but there’s a fine line between a con artist and an entrepreneur, and what I mean by that is.

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Michael Schein: You know, we hear these stories that we lionize like there’s this famous story about Bill Gates selling dos for 100 grand or something and then saying Okay, now we gotta go design and operating system, you know so he basically on somebody.

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Michael Schein: I heard that but because he became Bill Gates and because he had the goods to back it up.

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He.

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Michael Schein: We actually like lionized that story, so I think i’m not saying you should why at all, but what I am saying is it’s just funny to think about the fact, who is it that we consider entrepreneurs and it’s usually the people who don’t have the stuff at the end to back it up.

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Michael Schein: it’s like like a Ponzi scheme where they’re selling selling selling and then, when you pull the curtain back in the wizard of Oz it’s just an old man.

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Justin Donne: And then there’s also showmanship involved in that I mean right otherwise ilan musk wouldn’t have gone and Saturday night live woody is he was pretty good it was it.

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Justin Donne: was pretty good, but if there was no showmanship necessary and entrepreneurship, he wouldn’t have bothered wasting his time on that show, but the the real point here is that there are techniques.

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Justin Donne: And then there are, how you use those techniques and the technique in and of itself is not evil or it cannot be evil, it is neither good nor bad it’s the use that you put to it so just because somebody uses this.

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Justin Donne: format, for example, the entrepreneur did I says Oh, he must be trying to put a con over on you, which is not true because, again, I know, the man who originated that format for presentations.

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Justin Donne: And he’s the furthest thing from a con artists in the world he’s a very genuine absolutely high impact.

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Justin Donne: You know what you pay is what you get in fact he delivers a lot more, so he couldn’t endorse them enough he’s fantastic the man I learned it from, and I will use that and in fact guess what I used it in a context.

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Justin Donne: to sell the autism strategy for the City Council over here, so I just I picked that format and I borrowed it across industries from the whole.

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Justin Donne: sales and marketing and this and events to let’s try and sell this strategy for three years strategy it’s already finished now, but this three year strategy to help you know some some disadvantaged people in our local community and it worked.

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Justin Donne: brilliantly so it’s the use that you put it tonight, what I have been successful without that strategic framework, maybe, maybe not and that’s what I think is really important.

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Justin Donne: to learn, but also to use obviously ethically is my preference, so let me, let me ask you a question now about you so so what’s been your biggest challenge in business and how did you overcome it.

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Michael Schein: I think there are so many, but I think the biggest challenge was that I.

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Michael Schein: Really never thought of myself as a business person I mean, I think, maybe that’s why I was attracted to.

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Michael Schein: ideas like this we get in our own heads, so much so, I mean I excuse me, I always was a very or at least saw myself as kind of an artsy type kid like I wanted to write novels.

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Michael Schein: And after that I was really interested in in you know, like music, but like rock and roll and punk rock and wanted to play in bands.

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Michael Schein: And when I thought about the idea of being in business or going into business that just really didn’t appeal to me so eventually just to get a job, just to make a living, I got a corporate job and I was there for a long time.

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Michael Schein: And I resented it the whole time, but what held me back was this idea that like Okay, I could write fiction every morning, you know and make it make it quote unquote that way, but if not I have to just sort of hate my life in this corporate job.

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Michael Schein: And when I started to like loosen the boundaries in my mind, and so you know, there are these words we put on things, business and this and that the other.

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Michael Schein: But really it’s just a series of side doors, I mean if I can figure out ways to use my writing and use my creativity and combine that with some of the tools of business.

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Michael Schein: Why is that a bad thing, and I did that, and you know eventually started a business and, ultimately, it came full circle and led to me writing a book, which is what I always wanted to do so, but.

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Michael Schein: I think I was always in my own head, I think I was very black and white in my thinking it was either like be this artist, you know or or or or languish away in the corporate world, and I think I got my own way for a long time.

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Justin Donne: yeah I think a lot of people, a lot of people do I think.

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Justin Donne: I think i’ve been there myself, so what would you say, then, is the accomplishment that you’re most proud of in.

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Justin Donne: Business so far.

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Michael Schein: i’m so proud of, of going out on my own, you know I mean I worked at that corporate job for three years, I learned a lot, you know I had this band.

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Michael Schein: In New York, and we did pretty well in every other way, besides making money, I mean we sold out venues, we did this, but I couldn’t make a living at it and we broke up.

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Michael Schein: And I got this job and I started to do well there because i’m kind of a.

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Michael Schein: hard working guy.

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Michael Schein: And for three years, I really learned, it turned me into an adult but I was there, eight years.

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Michael Schein: And it was completely out of fear and I remember people used to say to me just send out one resonate you hate your job so much and I couldn’t bring myself to do it, I had this weird mental block I thought i’d end up in a cardboard box I don’t know.

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Michael Schein: So when I eventually went on my own and became a freelance copywriter and almost went broke in the process, but made it happen and.

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Michael Schein: There have been all these other accomplishments since that have been a.

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Michael Schein: Big big deal in terms of what I would have in the past thought was the biggest deal like publishing this book was a huge deal for me, I spoke to a huge audience in China, all of these things, but I think.

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Michael Schein: When I think about that initial sort of breaking through the wall and actually having the courage to go on my own.

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Michael Schein: The fact that i’m still doing that 10 years later I guess i’m i’m really, really proud of that, because it almost didn’t happen.

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Justin Donne: yeah and that’s that’s you should be and and, most of us are proud of the things that you know almost didn’t happen, but we made it it’s it’s it’s almost like that.

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Justin Donne: little bit of a hero’s journey type of thing the book we’re talking about, by the way, is like it’s called the hype handbook by Michael F shine and I highly endorse and recommended, otherwise you wouldn’t be here talking about.

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Justin Donne: It so so so read it, and as as we go along you’ll you’ll probably get the flavor for why so.

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Justin Donne: How did having a core strategy for you play into achieving that accomplishment of because it was was it pure accident was it like Forrest gump all start a business, it almost didn’t or did you have a core strategy to launch yourself and make that happen.

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Michael Schein: So this really great book called the quick moment by a guy named France Johansen and he talks about how all of these so called core strategies, if people have a core strategy when they start they almost inevitably fail and the people who succeed.

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Michael Schein: They make up their core strategy like they go backwards, they talk about how they got there as if it was planned all along and it almost never is, and the reason for that, and he gets into like.

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Michael Schein: almost like quantum physics, is that chaos theory is that everything’s random you know, meaning.

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Michael Schein: You, there are a million unintended consequences to everything you do, and you can’t predict the future, so my original I started with a core strategy my strategy was, I was in the.

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Michael Schein: BP oil industry at my in my corporate life, which is business process outsourcing, which is a fancy way of saying we ran call centers like customer service.

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Michael Schein: centers, and so I knew, when I was in that job that the writers, who understood that industry and who understood Telecom, we always had trouble getting them, so I always did the writing you know.

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Michael Schein: So I had this brilliant idea that I thought was just a no brainer a quote unquote like how could this fail.

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Michael Schein: I could become like the world’s first BP oh and telecom copywriter because there was this huge need for that right.

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Michael Schein: It failed miserably right it bomb, but it wasn’t a failure because I put myself out there as a tech writer and not a tech writer actually a like a marketing writer who dealt with technology.

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Michael Schein: And even though I didn’t become known as that sort of BP oh copywriter I became known as a technology writer and then from there that got me and.

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Michael Schein: column it in and from the income I started writing about hype and then people started to like my marketing, so you know.

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Michael Schein: I think that um.

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Michael Schein: This idea that we’re just blundering around in Defense I think it’s more important to have a strategy you got to start somewhere.

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Michael Schein: Or else you’re going to flounder all over so you should try to fool yourself that you have this strategy that’s going to work, otherwise you’ll never get started.

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Michael Schein: But in reality, what almost always happens is that you see unintended consequences and the people who are successful pick up on them and accelerate on them and that’s most certainly what happened to me.

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Justin Donne: You know that makes sense there’s there’s a quote I don’t remember who said it’s I can’t attribute it, but I remember hearing it many times about.

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Justin Donne: something to the effect that plans change but decisions don’t so the decision to you know, become a successful writer that doesn’t change, but what changes is the plans they go all over the place.

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Michael Schein: I heard that set a different way to so Neil gaiman via the fantasy.

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Justin Donne: i’m considering taking the his master.

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Justin Donne: class which.

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Michael Schein: yeah I took that it was fun as good as.

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Justin Donne: A good.

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Michael Schein: I mean you know sort I mean those master classes are all good but they’re all very broad it’s almost more like Jean Neil gaiman talk about writing you know, and I mean it.

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Justin Donne: Is yeah and I, and I I looked at dustin hoffman’s on acting and I have to confess that.

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Justin Donne: They had pulled it so it’s no longer available, so I had to get it another way, and so I got it another way, nuff said and I watched it and um and, at the end i’m like boy, am I glad I didn’t pay for this, because.

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Michael Schein: they’re all because it was exactly that is just like it might as well have been you know, Barbara walters interviewing.

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Justin Donne: For four hours because.

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Justin Donne: I don’t think he was he’s really that good of an act coach or teacher, he is of course one of the.

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Michael Schein: greatest actors ever.

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Justin Donne: right as a teacher, I was like.

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Justin Donne: Interesting fascinating for me to watch, especially considering you know I made it, I was just always fascinated to do it and but I can’t possibly do that there’s so many of these mass.

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Justin Donne: Mass things, but the one I was really considering is the is the Neil gaiman one and only just to strengthen my writing game pun intended.

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Michael Schein: Well, all that to say I mean he made a comment I forget if it was in the master class or somewhere else, but he basically said.

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Michael Schein: He always knew he wanted to tell stories and there was this mountain that was being a profession that he made his living writing stories.

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Michael Schein: And he would judge every activity by whether it got him closer or farther to that mountain so if someone offered him.

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Michael Schein: I don’t know the lowest level job reading scripts he might take that because he would get to make some money analyzing story structures, but if someone offered him a higher paying job writing technical copy he would turn that down because it would take him farther away so he.

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Michael Schein: Had this rod.

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Michael Schein: and objective, but he.

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Michael Schein: He let himself wind, as long as he was getting closer to the mountaintop and I thought that I think that I think about that a lot I think that’s a really good way to think about goals.

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Justin Donne: Are to rigidity and i’ve heard it said, like that in a very similar way actually.

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Justin Donne: And in fact.

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Justin Donne: Oh no I just realized I know where Neil gaiman got that.

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Michael Schein: Oh, really.

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Justin Donne: yeah I know where he got that from.

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Justin Donne: And I just remembered where he got that from there was a.

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Justin Donne: I don’t know if this is too controversial to talk about here, but there was a there was a brief period of time where Neil gaiman was involved with and then, and then I think he ended his involved with i’m not sure, but is involved with.

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Michael Schein: Scientology I yeah I knew that I didn’t is that, where that comes.

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Justin Donne: From that comes from that.

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Justin Donne: That comes from that because there’s a concept that I like, which is the concept of the ideal scene, as part of a management structure, which is exactly what what he just explained there, which is you, is it is it getting you closer or further away to that the way it’s phrased there.

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Michael Schein: Is an.

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Justin Donne: ideal scene so.

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Justin Donne: i’m one of these.

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Justin Donne: i’ve been accused of being pedantic so i’m one of these people that I when I remember i’m like I remember where he.

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Michael Schein: got that from.

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Justin Donne: So so as great as the old guy.

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Justin Donne: You know, he that that that piece of work was not original, but it is definitely some really good advice.

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Michael Schein: And I think I anthology.

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Michael Schein: As a people wouldn’t be attracted to I think as a as a motivational you know, philosophy and and a set of you know.

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Michael Schein: Some of the positive thinking self help stuff and there’s really good what’s controversial is what they how they treat their people, as you know, money spigots you know what I mean like how they got delayed.

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Michael Schein: Because yeah.

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Justin Donne: Do they really it’s again it’s a lot of it is how much of that is is.

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Justin Donne: yeah spun in the media and.

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Michael Schein: it’s hard to know i’m not an insider.

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Justin Donne: I don’t think I don’t really know without knowing that it really works, I think it’s tough to judge like that, so I try to refrain from.

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Justin Donne: passing judgment because Do we really know.

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Michael Schein: Because I pass judgment actually I mean I take from anything I can find and that’s kind of this book like if.

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Michael Schein: If I found a propaganda artist if I found something from Martin Luther King if it was the same organizing principle I would I would learn from it.

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Michael Schein: I think, where where it gets in trouble for all of these philosophies from the iron Rand stuff to the to the to some of the new woke movements to.

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Michael Schein: evangelical Christianity to hasidic Judaism, is when you have to follow a B, C D E, F G, all the way through Z and if you don’t you’re a heretic you know what I mean.

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Michael Schein: So you can’t be like.

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Michael Schein: Scientology if someone is taking you away from the beliefs they’re a suppressive person, and you have to cut them out of their life that’s where it starts to get hairy so that’s why I I tend not to be an issue you know Scientology.

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Justin Donne: Sure sure.

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Justin Donne: Right associate with that, but what I mean is, is even even that which i’ve heard, of course, in the media, I know people who will say well that’s not that’s not true, I mean, I think.

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Justin Donne: In fact, a couple famous marketers online like grant cardone and stuff will say that’s not that’s not true that’s not a pop maybe maybe some people used that or did that but that’s not forced upon you, and it’s not something that we.

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Justin Donne: We require he says, I have friends and, in fact, in his last 10 X growth conference he interviewed some people you you wouldn’t have thought really meshed with that philosophy.

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Justin Donne: And yet he’s totally open to it so again i’m with a grain of salt on that I gotta pay raises big grains of salt, with everything you know everything I didn’t you just got it yeah I agree so anyway.

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Justin Donne: Exactly so so about the so now that we’re on the topic of.

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Justin Donne: The presentation of people presenting themselves, and all that so so would you share with us what are what are three to five key skills moves or techniques that protect against failure or that from the book basically maybe three.

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Justin Donne: Three things that we might learn in there that we could actually take away today.

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Michael Schein: yeah so it’s worth giving a little bit of background about what what this book really is so it’s called the hype handbook and the subtitle i’m going to read the dumbest more descriptive than the book but it’s so long, I can’t even remember it but.

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Michael Schein: kind of on purpose it’s like i’m bored at file title but it’s um.

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Michael Schein: yeah 12 indispensable success secrets from the world’s greatest propagandist self promoters cult leaders mischief makers and boundary breakers, and I bring that up, not the plug my book, although that is certainly part of.

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Michael Schein: It but I bring that up because what I did in figuring this out, as I was pretty good at this this thing called hype, and I would always look at unconventional marketers we already touched on that right like instead of looking at the.

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Michael Schein: latest online marketing course I would say okay well how is it that.

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Michael Schein: Everyone, you know the grateful dead Tony robbins and Andy warhol all get people frothing at the mouth, you know crowds of thousands, what is it that they’re doing right.

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Michael Schein: And I would study that and so when I when I decided to write the book I said, you know what i’m going to read all of these books.

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Michael Schein: On everyone from propagandists to cult leaders to really strong business people to.

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Michael Schein: People who lead causes, and I want to find out Are there things that unify them all, because if these people are just naturally good at, and when I say hype all that means is.

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Michael Schein: Any set of activities that gets a large number of people emotional so that you can move them to take a certain action right so, is it just that certain people are naturally good at that, if so, there was no strategy you just got to figure it out, you just got to develop the skills.

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Justin Donne: or born with it.

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Michael Schein: or be born with it even better, I mean even even even more scary but possible right or it could just be that you, you know learn in a you just sort of get better trial and error this and that right.

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Michael Schein: Or are there, deep psychological principles that repeat over and over again Are there things that human beings, because of the fact that our brains are not set up to respond accurately they’re set up to help us survive.

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Michael Schein: And also because we’re the most social animal in the history of the earth beyond and beyond anything you know, and we can talk about why that is, are there.

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Michael Schein: Things that we respond to timing in it turned out there really weren’t there they’re just like 12.

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Michael Schein: ways to get people to respond, the way you want them to that are based, and how we react so all That being said.

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Michael Schein: There are a few that I discussed that are sort of the cornerstone concepts so so one is human beings are much more easily attracted to and energized by being against something.

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Michael Schein: Then they are being for something and and obviously that’s the tendency that’s beyond behind our racism and sexism and bigotry and nationalism and.

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Michael Schein: Certainly not encouraging that, but the reality is that’s the way we are so I remember working in the brooklyn writers space, which is this some.

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Michael Schein: Community for, as you would think serious brooklyn writers and everyone in there was a little bit you know quite liberal, you know, not a lot of makeup not a lot of flaunting of material goods, you know they work at the food co op in park slope.

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Michael Schein: You know so they’re Obviously not.

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Michael Schein: Very commercial we minded people, but do you know how many PCs were in that place.

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Justin Donne: PCs is in computers.

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Michael Schein: Computers to write on of all the people in there.

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Justin Donne: 00 really.

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Michael Schein: Everyone has a.

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Michael Schein: 12 00 because these non brand oriented people are so against being a corporate drone and being you know that sort of thing that they’ll buy an apple as the as their signature flag.

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Justin Donne: To show that they’re not commercial Oh, I see yeah I haven’t no.

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Michael Schein: yeah I sort of why, but my point is.

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Michael Schein: They aren’t buying that apple they love apple they’re buying apple because it says something about what they’re not.

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Justin Donne: Oh right.

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Michael Schein: It says that they’re not the person who fills out excel spreadsheets you know what I mean.

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Michael Schein: they’re an apple owner there in artists they’re not a you know someone who works on a computer all day meanwhile apple was at one point, the.

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Michael Schein: most valuable company in the world they’re as corporate, as you can possibly get so.

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Michael Schein: they’ve done a great job so think about what they did they had those commercials in when Steve Jobs first came back in like 97 or whenever it was justin long was like the hip.

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Michael Schein: apple MAC guy and john hodgman was like the fat, you know guy with the mustache with the White button down shirt with the stains on it, he was the corporate world but PC you don’t want to be that guy.

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Michael Schein: You know you don’t want to be that no one thinks of himself as the boring corporate guy you want to be the hip artsy die right.

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Michael Schein: So people are very attracted to being against so it’s important to pick a fight you don’t have to pick a fight with a person I do that but, but that can sometimes bleed into being a troll.

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Michael Schein: pick a fight with an idea, take a bold stand and you’ll be amazed how people bombed around you um another one is something I call you know i’m.

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Michael Schein: Creating a secret society, so what most hype artists and, by extension, the best promoters and marketers to do.

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Michael Schein: Is they make it seem like all of their success is happening on a grassroots level, so they make it seem like they’re just getting millions of Twitter followers and instagram followers and whatever.

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Michael Schein: And the scary thing about that is that everyone who admires them tries to emulate them so they spend all this time tweeting and instagram and all day and don’t understand why they’re not growing or back when when I was.

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Michael Schein: playing in bands, they would just put up flyers all day and sort of wonder why they weren’t getting famous right what what the best hype artists and marketers do.

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Michael Schein: Is they make it seem like that’s all that’s going on, and they do some of it, but what they’re really doing is they’re nurturing this group of really close friendships with influential people behind the scenes and they call on favors so it’s a lot easier to.

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Michael Schein: You know, say to someone who has a 50,000 person following hey man, you know we’ve been friends, for a long time, could you send word out.

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Michael Schein: You know about my product to this group and do that five times in a two month period, and there are ways to do that, too, there are ways to start relationships like people.

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Michael Schein: Especially successful people like to be known for what most people don’t recognize them for so like, for example, if there’s a captain of industry.

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Michael Schein: Who paints on the weekend and very few people know that they paint on the weekend, if you praise their painting on Twitter or ask this either paintings on Twitter.

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Michael Schein: They will open up a friendship with you in a way that talking about their billions will never do.

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Justin Donne: Because then they’ll just think that.

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Michael Schein: People that you want something from.

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Justin Donne: Well it’s like Prince Charles he’s a alpha painter and Gardner and he would much rather talk about that than any you know gossip or anything else so.

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Michael Schein: talk to him about that, and he will invite the most common common or into his drawing room to have a conversation with him.

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Michael Schein: That he would never do if you’re talking about what’s on the docket for Parliament, or whatever you know.

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Justin Donne: Well, no, he doesn’t do governor but yeah I know what you mean.

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Michael Schein: No, no, no, but they you know they they they do, they do this paperwork stuff you know they have to like proceed.

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Michael Schein: You know the Queen, for example, has to do this speech that she didn’t write you know.

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Michael Schein: yeah women sunshine sunshine on all these duties that they do you know what I mean whatever they are they.

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Justin Donne: Know they’re not very interested in that, but.

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Justin Donne: Page gardening only right.

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Michael Schein: Even if you are interested in other words i’m really interested in my business, but if you were.

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Michael Schein: A 20 year old coming out of school and you come up to me and you say i’d really like to pick your brain about content marketing.

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Michael Schein: Okay, I mean that’s an annoyance that I have to deal with, maybe i’ll do it, maybe I won’t depending on how busy I am, but if you say to me.

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Michael Schein: You know you mentioned on an interview that you write fiction in the mornings, and you mentioned that you, you know you really like bore hash and i’m a huge.

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Michael Schein: fan, in fact, they studied him in college and love to talk to you about your favorite short stories hmm now I don’t make my living that way.

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Michael Schein: But, but when you asked me about my business which I do make my living at my cortisol levels go up because you know i’ve had people approach me like that, who were really just kissing my backside so they could get something from me, I was you know i’ve learned to be on.

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Michael Schein: guard about that.

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Michael Schein: Sure, but if you asked me about my personal interest i’m flattered that you took the time to listen and i’m talking about something i’m interested in i’ll talk to anyone who.

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Michael Schein: You know, writes me about that on Twitter or instagram or whatever right, and this is something to keep in mind um I guess a third there are so many, but a third one, is something I call.

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Michael Schein: The milk before meat strategy so religions use this a lot.

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Michael Schein: So let’s talk about Scientology right I don’t know if this is just media or not, but let’s just use the.

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Michael Schein: stereotype people say that when you’re in Scientology for a really long time, and this has been documented in books like going clear by Lawrence Wright who’s by all intensive a very good journalist you learn that Scientologists believe that.

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Michael Schein: You know that our negative emotions come from aliens who lived on the lip of a volcano now.

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Michael Schein: i’m not saying that’s even a bad thing Every religion has weird stuff in fact that’s more believable than some of the supernatural religions, however, if you walk to someone in the street and you said.

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Michael Schein: You know I could really help you out there are aliens that live on the lip of a volcano that are infesting your mind and you need to expel them you’d be like.

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Michael Schein: Okay, let me call 911 there’s a madman you know coming up to me, however, if you say to them listen, you know i’m.

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Michael Schein: i’d love to tell you about some ideas you know there’s this mountain.

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Michael Schein: That goal oriented you know I can teach you a system for achieving your goals, I mean you’re a business person ready you interested in learning how to achieve your goals better yeah of course okay wonderful.

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Michael Schein: And then you give them a few tactics to help them wow that’s really fascinating Oh, by the way, we’re having a meeting.

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Michael Schein: Why don’t you come and it doesn’t look like a church, it looks like a self help seminar and you learn three things that helped your business.

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Michael Schein: Slowly but surely when they finally introduced the Aliens on the volcano if that’s even what they teach it doesn’t seem that weird because humans are very scared of big changes.

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Michael Schein: we’re set up to win, something it departs very far from what we’re used to that’s like giving a little baby meat.

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Michael Schein: don’t get sick.

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Michael Schein: But if you give a baby milk and then you give them smashed up bananas and then you get them smashed up beef and then you give them solid beef they.

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Michael Schein: They don’t even notice it’s happening so if you have an idea that’s truly groundbreaking or unusual and you try to introduce it all at once, and you see people getting worked up and pushing you away, you can introduce the same idea in segments and they’ll come along with you.

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Justin Donne: it’s just trusting right.

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Michael Schein: yeah very.

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Justin Donne: interesting approach because.

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Justin Donne: I have heard.

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Justin Donne: It described and applied in other areas like I don’t know if you ever read the book a separate piece by James.

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Michael Schein: I know that in elementary school.

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Michael Schein: A separate piece by the the one about the guy who gets pushed off, but the tree or whatever.

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Justin Donne: separate pieces is the.

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Justin Donne: What sticks in my mind, I read it, and now i’m not going to tell the world exactly how old I am, although I am Oh well over 40 years old, but this was an elementary school that I read.

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Justin Donne: This in the fourth grade so it’s a long time ago, but I have a great memory, so I remember.

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Justin Donne: very clearly that it was about a school teacher who very gradually very, very gradually got the students to go from you know the pledge of allegiance to cutting up the flag making collages and eventually adopting and completely opposing political ideology.

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Michael Schein: yeah exactly that’s that’s that’s the strategy.

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Justin Donne: And the strategy was it was very, very, very gradual or, as you say you know milk before me, but the other application to that and, like, for example in a positive ways after.

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Justin Donne: You know is that it, which proves that you know the system just can’t take even good stuff to that abundance is a shot.

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Michael Schein: is good or bad doesn’t matter it doesn’t matter if it’s if it’s different than what you’re used to.

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Justin Donne: that’s all that’s the one they were liberated the concentration camps after the Holocaust and there were obviously some people who were.

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Justin Donne: famished who were you know they had undergone starvation and the soldiers were instructed not to give them solid food, you know.

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Justin Donne: Professor that’s yes, that would kill them so they were instructed by don’t you just give them a little bit of soup.

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Justin Donne: And and and gradually build them back up so in many contacts, this sort of gradual approach is so applicable, but thank you for sharing those three really, really cool you know tips, I guess, or skills or things that we could do.

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Michael Schein: I want to say something no.

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Michael Schein: The gradual approach, this is a little bit counterintuitive if your idea is truly groundbreaking or weird or unusual, you should use the gradual approach.

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Michael Schein: If your idea is common in other words, a lot of times we’re really good at what we do and we can provide a lot of value but there’s not a huge margin of difference, so there are all these like business coaches and some of them might be fantastic at what they do.

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Michael Schein: But if you try to describe in words what’s different about what they do if there’s not that much to get coaching is coaching.

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Michael Schein: If that’s the case you want to do the opposite, you want to seem as theatrical you know, in other words.

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Michael Schein: Use theater and look at Tony robbins right you go to a Tony robbins rally or an amway rally neither of what either of those people teaches is is.

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Michael Schein: It can be really useful but it’s not really groundbreaking you know I mean it’s all based on stuff that has existed before they bombard you with lights with sound with loud music with chanting another thing to do is use.

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Michael Schein: Science what they call ear candy and I can be consultants do that.

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Michael Schein: yeah the most common sense advice in the world if you put charts and.

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Michael Schein: figures and neuro epinephrine and different you know big words you know suddenly.

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Michael Schein: It gives you a veneer of authority that you can have noticed that i’m not saying this stuff should be bad what i’m saying is your grandpa could give you life changing advice and common sense language.

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Michael Schein: Thanks grandpa and you’re not gonna pay you won’t even treat them to a meal, but if someone says the same thing with charts and figures and.

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Michael Schein: Exploring scientific technology.

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Michael Schein: You know so it’s funny it’s the opposite of what you’ve what you’d expect.

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Michael Schein: In the more unusual and groundbreaking an idea is the more commonplace, you should.

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Justin Donne: Keep.

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Michael Schein: The least common place, you should make it more.

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Justin Donne: flamborough see, I have a rather.

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Justin Donne: Large vocabulary, so I keep I keep trying to be careful not to confuse people when I when I present or when I talked to them and potentially I shouldn’t be so worried about it because it.

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Michael Schein: depends no but it depends, it depends, so if you’re in a field.

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Michael Schein: You got to be clear that’s not what I needed the person who does this fastest Simon senate right so Simon cynics and I write about this in the book Simon cynic is famous for start with why.

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Michael Schein: And he’s a clear speaker right, I mean you gotta at the core people have to understand what you’re saying that’s not but what he’ll do is.

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Michael Schein: his ideas are honestly not groundbreaking I mean he’s saying start with why, first of all that’s debatable and, second, of all.

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Michael Schein: Okay, and it’s another way of saying do what you love you know what I mean it’s not groundbreaking but the guy makes 100 grand to talk and and he’s good he helps people right.

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Michael Schein: But watch him so first of all, if you see him like he has this kind of half British accent he wears these little spectacles, you would think that he was a professor of some.

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Justin Donne: yeah you guys never done anything, besides marketing.

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Michael Schein: He worked at ogilvy and Mather before he.

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Justin Donne: said i’ve gotten past that section.

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Michael Schein: Right so yeah so that’s, the first thing, and if you hear.

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Michael Schein: me he did this thing about why millennials are like the worst generation, which is completely debunked global, but everyone just accepted it at face value and i’m not calling him a con artist his stuff is is fine it’s good.

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Michael Schein: yeah but he always uses, you know the dopa mean gets fired in the mind and the neural pathways and this and that, I mean other people just be like God damn kids today they don’t know what it’s.

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Justin Donne: like to make a buck, you know what I mean like.

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Michael Schein: The millennials the neural pathways when they were given you know in you know reward systems for debt and it’s like yeah you know, science and you suddenly yeah.

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Michael Schein: it’s like it’s like a doctor coming in in a white coat, so this is not an argument for being unclear.

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Michael Schein: An argument for using conspicuous signifiers of authority.

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Justin Donne: Interesting ya know so i’m glad you you clarified that because it’s not it’s, not that I need to just you know run roughshod with my geeky language on.

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Michael Schein: Talking and just let.

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Michael Schein: Let right.

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Justin Donne: You know hundred dollar words go, I still need to be clear with them it’s just that I shouldn’t shy away from selecting maybe a few of those to to to surround things and give it an air of authority.

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Michael Schein: But, but again, not I mean you don’t have to say.

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Michael Schein: You know you don’t have to use a $10 word when a $1 word will do, but if you can back up what you’re staying with some kind of obscure research that could or could not be used huh for will give credence to it, rather than if you just set it out right.

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Justin Donne: yeah.

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Michael Schein: No, I understand, though, what.

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Michael Schein: charge show a figure show you know, whatever.

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Justin Donne: yeah and those are those are easy to come by because you know i’ve got those associations that send me all those charts every.

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Justin Donne: Rights I could borrow those and start using those and say, well, the Institute of leadership and management.

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Justin Donne: 100% this that and that.

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Justin Donne: You know quoted incited and this that and the other thing.

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Michael Schein: Is that cortisol is activated in your system which makes people less.

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Michael Schein: likely to buy from you notice, I said that a few minutes ago right, I mean, then, that gives me that makes em now it’s true.

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Michael Schein: But it makes me sound like an expert.

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Justin Donne: yeah when I was going with.

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Justin Donne: That have a scientist right so right so now that we’ve talked about a few more of these techniques that you you’ve you’ve taught us how has leveraging these you know proven strategies affected your earning capacity let’s, in other words, have you use these.

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Michael Schein: Well yeah I mean it, I mean that’s what I do for a living, so I I am I was talking about that corporate job I haven’t how I was scared to leave and I had that idea that I was going to be a corporate copywriter.

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Michael Schein: or a marketing copywriter.

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Michael Schein: And because I was a good writer and because I had some business knowledge or I shouldn’t say business knowledge industry knowledge I figured I would just leave my job, this was like 10 years ago I figured I would just leave my job and start.

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Michael Schein: You know, making money and I had a year’s worth of savings and I almost went broke, I mean I couldn’t sell I didn’t know how to sell.

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Michael Schein: or really market for that matter, because I, you know people who hired me would rehire me, but I just couldn’t get any flow of leads, so what happened was.

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Michael Schein: I I I thought back at a certain point, I was, I was it was actually funny I walked by the old club that we used to play at just randomly the neighborhood changed a lot, so I was having a meeting.

316
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Michael Schein: With a friend of mine, who was a consultant in the lower East side it’s all like bankers and lawyers now but back when I was playing in bands, it was like the.

317
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Michael Schein: Where all the rock and roll stuff was happening, and so I walked by that old club and I remembered how we used to sell it out all the time, like on a Wednesday night, and we would do it by hyping stuff up, we never used the word marketing.

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Michael Schein: But we would do things like like, for example, we’ve got our we’ve talked our way on to showtime at the Apollo because we knew we would be booed off, you know.

319
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Michael Schein: And then we got all kinds of press around that so we would do things like that all the time.

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Michael Schein: And and we’re really, really, and I particularly is really good at it and I was like Why am I so bad at marketing now and it was because I had become.

321
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Michael Schein: Corporate I was, I was, I was studying a B testing and sales funnels and this and that and I forgot.

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Michael Schein: That at the core attracting attention and getting people emotional is about really deep psychological stuff it’s about benevolent mischief you know.

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Michael Schein: So I said, you know what i’m going to change my approach, I mean i’m going to try to use this and I did, and it worked like a charm I mean I started.

324
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Michael Schein: Doing kind of benevolently miss gbs stuff and taking on that puckish sort of role and I started doing really well with the writing business and then it turned into an agency so.

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Michael Schein: What I do is I you know i’m a big reader but i’m not everyone’s a big reader now that’s like a big fat and I think that’s a great fad but, but at the same time.

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Michael Schein: it’s like everyone reads the same kind of business books and I think they’re worth reading, but like I also think there’s a lot of other great stuff out there, so i’ll read these obscure books on like crowd psychology or like brainwashing or i’ll read.

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Michael Schein: You know biographies of these really unusual counterintuitive people and then i’ll conduct experiments and my rules are, it has to be ethical and make people’s lives better you know what I mean, and there can be deception involved.

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Michael Schein: yeah and if I hit those drills i’ll do these little experiments and if they fail i’ll discard them, but if they succeed, not only do they become part of the package that that we use for our clients and for ourselves, they become one of the strategies, I teach you know, in the book.

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Michael Schein: And in workshops so yeah I mean it’s it’s it’s all the money i’ve made in the last decade has to do with stuff yeah.

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Justin Donne: that’s cool and now you’re passing it forward with this remarkable book The height and book, so that we can all take advantage of that in an ethical way, please, I mean it’s only request we can’t police it, you can obviously use it to con people and create a create nastiness but.

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Michael Schein: I should say, the reason I feel comfortable putting this book out there, and you knowing it will be used ethically is because, frankly, the bad guys already get it that’s true.

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Michael Schein: they’ve done experiments on people with antisocial personality disorder and that’s this basket of Disorders that includes like malignant narcissism psychopathic and sociopathy.

333
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Michael Schein: Right and they’ve put them in laboratory conditions where they’re in stressful.

334
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Michael Schein: Like social.

335
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Michael Schein: Situation and they measure their vital signs and their heart rates don’t go up like most people when we’re in stressful social situations we get our pulse rate.

336
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Michael Schein: palpitating you know they don’t have that so basically.

337
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Michael Schein: it’s not so much that these strategies are bad in fact it’s not at all it’s that people who have an who are anti social.

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Michael Schein: don’t let their emotions get in the way they can see people as as chess pieces so it’s again it’s they’ll say you know if I if I do X, Y amp Z i’m going to get this from someone they can just do it, so the worst.

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Michael Schein: People in the world, almost always are good at manipulating people but they’re also always good they’re good at at inter personally, you know moving people and getting them to do what they want them to do.

340
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Michael Schein: That doesn’t mean the strategies are bad, quite the contrary, the way we wrecked the problem is that the rest of us.

341
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Michael Schein: Because we don’t like those kinds of people and don’t want to be like them, and because we get emotional in interpersonal situations we veer away, and then we tell ourselves wise like well as long as my work is good at all rise to the top.

342
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Michael Schein: yeah and it’s not true, we just want to believe it.

343
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Michael Schein: And the other thing is, we get so i’m not worried.

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Michael Schein: them we get through so i’m not worried I don’t think the people that I think that people who need this book are going to learn it and they’re not going to use it for evil, because they have too much empathy for that.

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Justin Donne: Exactly and and the people who you know don’t need it it’s this, this is a handbook for the rest of us.

346
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Justin Donne: it’s it’s not.

347
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Justin Donne: The 2% psychos that the Hannibal lecter is that can you know carve you open without having even a heartbeat.

348
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Michael Schein: You know, beyond Hannibal lecter is I mean, I think I can name a few Internet gurus who they’re not killing people, but I would say that they’re selling useless products and have a have a clan around them.

349
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Justin Donne: Oh yeah like I couldn’t quite a few little.

350
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Michael Schein: And I would expect just from the way they talk i’m not a psychologist did they have narcissistic personality disorder.

351
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Justin Donne: If you ever read the book The sociopath next door.

352
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Michael Schein: i’ve heard about it i’ve never read it, I heard.

353
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Justin Donne: Since you’re a reader you might enjoy that because.

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Justin Donne: That really corroborates everything you’re saying in that in that especially what you just said, which is like.

355
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Justin Donne: they’re not the people that you know the people you’re talking about probably similar ones to who i’m thinking of they’re not the kind of person you think oh my God it’s Hannibal lecter yeah.

356
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Justin Donne: Exactly i’ll have is Stefan with a nice can’t.

357
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hear.

358
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Justin Donne: You know they’re not like that you know they’re they’re really charming cute they’ve got a massive following much bigger than my own and.

359
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Michael Schein: And they don’t.

360
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Michael Schein: They don’t.

361
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Michael Schein: You know people on a deep level they just don’t.

362
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Michael Schein: They take money.

363
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Michael Schein: They take advantage of people.

364
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Justin Donne: They take advantage they take.

365
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Justin Donne: Man they don’t deliver you know something remarkable they deliver something that people.

366
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Justin Donne: I guess kind of like or whatever, but they’re not they’re not delivering the transformative promises that that money.

367
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Justin Donne: should be earning them so anyway, what was the so we talked about more strategies and reasons behind them in the book so what’s the best strategy you ever learned and what impact did it have, on your business.

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Michael Schein: it’s not a function of the best because they all interlock I would say then there’s one that the rest depend on its that make war not love thing about the drawing lines in the sand and people.

369
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Justin Donne: Could.

370
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Michael Schein: I mean if you don’t have a strong point of view, if you can say this is what in my world, I stand against Almost none of the rest of it works, because you’ll be generating energy around nothing right so like.

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Michael Schein: In other words, what I would do and I tell my clients this, the first thing you should ask yourself, is what is a point of view, commonly held in your corner of the universe, whether that’s your industry you’re seeing whenever.

372
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Michael Schein: Like that all of your contemporaries seem to believe very strongly that you secretly think is bunk.

373
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Michael Schein: Because if you can go out with that that suddenly makes you a guru so i’ll give you an example So the first thing I did that.

374
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Michael Schein: When I The thing that I did that hype tactic that I accidentally did that started building up my career and led to everything else.

375
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Michael Schein: I mean I tell this story all the time, but it’s a really good illustration of this.

376
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Michael Schein: You know Gary van der chuck who, I think, is a really good business person, and I have nothing against especially wine library, I thought that was actually a really strong.

377
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Michael Schein: Value adding kind of business, but when he became an Internet guru he’s I heard him constantly going around with this advice to hustle hustle hustle so any.

378
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Michael Schein: Any constantly like telling people who already worked hard screaming at them that they needed to tweet from the toilet at three in the morning, that they needed to in their 20s not have a girlfriend have a life, you know just like work, and you know that.

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Michael Schein: And I was like not only do I think that’s a terrible way to live, but let’s put that aside, I don’t believe it because I see first of all, the guy’s got 300 people working for him.

380
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Michael Schein: So he doesn’t do all the tweeting but even if he did what if you’re you know his company sold wine, at one point, what if you’re making the wine should you be.

381
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Michael Schein: on social media 24 hours a day or should you be paying attention to how to finding the right grapes right.

382
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Michael Schein: So I didn’t believe it, but you would see all these young people, and no one disagreed with it every be hustle i’m a hustler did it did it did it.

383
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Michael Schein: So I was writing for ink at the time Inc magazine, and I wrote an article which I was scared to write called wide Gary van der chuck is flat out wrong, and I was very respectful I mean I didn’t say I said he’s a great all the things i’m saying now I wasn’t a troll.

384
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Michael Schein: Because I do I think he’s smartest can be smart as a whip and I don’t think he’s one of these people who doesn’t deliver value, I think he does, but I think his advice that all of these people were very violently following.

385
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Michael Schein: was bad advice and and what I said was if you want to.

386
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Michael Schein: This guy is such a good self promoter that if you want to be successful don’t listen to his advice follow what he does, because when you get people to work really hard on behalf of your cause it binds them to you so said that publicly that night he responded to me.

387
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Michael Schein: Personally, and I was a nobody.

388
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Michael Schein: And he responded to me by video and just chewed me a new one, you know and.

389
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Michael Schein: Then all his followers started calling me on Twitter lazy and idiot and this and that and I was like what did I do I ruin my career, but by the next day I had all these new followers.

390
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Michael Schein: And they it turned out that we’re all of these scattered people who felt the way I did.

391
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Michael Schein: But there was no organizing principle, there was no leader and now by me saying something it was like the emperor’s got no clothes, it was like wow I thought that, too, we got to follow this guy.

392
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Michael Schein: So if you can draw a line in the sand and stand against the common view and your corner there well you’ll be amazed, if you really believe it.

393
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Justin Donne: You know what I mean yeah be amazed by how many people work.

394
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Justin Donne: And when I think about it it’s it’s I was about to say and it’s you know it’s should be something that is you know, moral and ethical, it should be something in general good but.

395
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Michael Schein: I thought that was really ethical I mean I thought advice with harmful and yeah yeah.

396
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Justin Donne: I agree, but what I mean was that what I was gonna say was that i’ve actually noticed that there’s some really out there, ones that I wouldn’t particularly consider moral or ethical and yet they have amassed a little following.

397
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Michael Schein: around what do you, what do you think like minded.

398
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Justin Donne: People so there’s that politician I forget down South who’s like an outspoken you know for child, you know consent and pedophilia and all that, but in the sense of.

399
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Michael Schein: Oh yeah.

400
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Justin Donne: yeah in the south, somewhere, I forget where exactly is all I remember he’s got blond hair and this and he’s he’s really out there, then, because he really.

401
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Justin Donne: Is wow so some of the stuff I would consider you know jailbait you know, like go to jail for say even thinking that but he’s got a relatively small, thank goodness, relatively small following of people who agree with the with that kind of.

402
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Michael Schein: What what the Internet amplifies that right, so when I heard Gilbert a comedian talking about this.

403
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Michael Schein: But it’s so true, I mean.

404
00:50:58.980 → 00:51:08.910
Michael Schein: When we were kids the earth was round right, I mean that that was the earth everyone believed that and except for a few coops who printed out like.

405
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Justin Donne: Well, even not flat earth are saying it’s.

406
00:51:11.520 → 00:51:20.610
Michael Schein: right there was this little group of flatter thurs who my science teacher showed us their photocopied stapled newsletter that about 19 people subscribe to.

407
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Michael Schein: That believed in this idiotic thing now because of the Internet and because the New York Times, and the flat earth society website can be designed to look just as beautiful from one another.

408
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Michael Schein: Every tribe is taken seriously, so there are these people who have these cockamamie i’m going to just call this cockamamie cuz it’s ridiculous these cockamamie arguments.

409
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Michael Schein: that the earth.

410
00:51:41.010 → 00:51:43.830
Michael Schein: Is flat, and because of the Internet.

411
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Michael Schein: The very lens through which these contrarian points of view game die hard followers and they can raise money, I mean all this crazy stuff it just it’s a lesson, you know don’t do it don’t spread garbage like that, but like us.

412
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Michael Schein: Just observe.

413
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Michael Schein: You know that’s human.

414
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Michael Schein: irrationality at work and every single one of us is irrational.

415
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Justin Donne: To a degree yeah for sure yeah.

416
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Justin Donne: Well we’re not all vulcans you know even they.

417
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Justin Donne: Even they weren’t perfectly rational.

418
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Michael Schein: We all have the capacity for reason that’s not what i’m saying what i’m saying is our brains are wired to view the world.

419
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Michael Schein: Through the senses and through the way our brains are setup, which is how evolution programmed us to spread our genes and survive, so we have mental shortcuts that allow us to move more quickly, we have.

420
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Michael Schein: biases that allow us to bond with a group at the expense of the truth, and if you think you’re an exception to this you’re at the most danger for being taken in.

421
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Michael Schein: Because you don’t think oh i’m i’m rational, you know.

422
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Justin Donne: I am yeah.

423
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Michael Schein: or by the easiest people that you’ve got.

424
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Justin Donne: A blind spot.

425
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Michael Schein: yeah that’s what I need it’s you know it’s if you look at the people who get taken by con artists.

426
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Michael Schein: It it tends to be the people who think they’re too smart for their own good.

427
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Justin Donne: So I know i’ve got many friends like that, who have you know genius level IQ they’re they’re just they’re they’re really, really super intelligent people and they have been taken in by con artists.

428
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Michael Schein: Because of that.

429
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Michael Schein: regard because of their self regard because they think.

430
00:53:40.770 → 00:53:44.520
Michael Schein: That they they assess something is as true, then it must.

431
00:53:44.550 → 00:53:48.660
Justin Donne: Ensure and it’s dangerous, because then they condemn people who don’t agree with them.

432
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Justin Donne: Because they must be ignorant in some way, they must they must have missions, you know, an.

433
00:53:54.120 → 00:54:00.300
Justin Donne: ignorance and ignorance, because of their own area dish area addition see that i’m throwing out.

434
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Michael Schein: that’s a good word but but The thing is, is that is that that is exactly what you’re saying is that they have that complete blind spot and yet.

435
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Justin Donne: When i’m looking at it, I say man, you were just taken in hook line and.

436
00:54:11.730 → 00:54:13.080
Justin Donne: sinker by that.

437
00:54:13.110 → 00:54:22.770
Justin Donne: lion con politician and you’re now defending this position incredibly well because you assume that you’re right and I, I never assume i’m right.

438
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Michael Schein: that’s a good chance.

439
00:54:24.480 → 00:54:31.530
Michael Schein: Yet, to get nerdy for a second I mean look at Socrates right his whole thing if you actually read like Plato writing from from.

440
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Justin Donne: I did read the complete works back in university here.

441
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Michael Schein: I didn’t read the complete works, but i’ve read some things and, if you look in the mirror it wasn’t what I expected I read it as an adult you know, and it was like a middle aged at all, and it was like.

442
00:54:43.560 → 00:54:56.970
Michael Schein: He doesn’t know anything and he knows that he doesn’t know he goes around telling people like hey you know and it’s actually annoying because someone will say something like well i’m a virtuous person well, what is this virtue, because I don’t know what virtue is I I.

443
00:54:57.420 → 00:55:00.330
Michael Schein: enlighten me cuz i’m kind of a silly guy like him and tell me.

444
00:55:00.420 → 00:55:04.350
Michael Schein: And they’ll be like well it’s about doing the right thing, well, could you tell me what right means because I I.

445
00:55:04.380 → 00:55:06.030
Michael Schein: struggled with it, I don’t know what to do it.

446
00:55:06.330 → 00:55:07.860
Michael Schein: And, by the time you’re done he’s like you know what it.

447
00:55:07.980 → 00:55:20.760
Michael Schein: means it’s like Bill Clinton, I mean and it’s annoying but like he’s right, I mean he’s the greatest thinker he’s he’s the cradle of Western thought this guy and his whole teaching was like I don’t know.

448
00:55:20.970 → 00:55:21.990
Michael Schein: anything.

449
00:55:22.020 → 00:55:28.080
Justin Donne: You know yeah his whole his whole thing was really, really funny I remember that it’s kind of.

450
00:55:28.470 → 00:55:31.200
Justin Donne: An amusing point, and then you wonder, and then you wonder.

451
00:55:31.530 → 00:55:36.660
Justin Donne: What did that help his demise because yeah.

452
00:55:36.960 → 00:55:38.250
Michael Schein: Spencer, no question.

453
00:55:38.310 → 00:55:38.580
Justin Donne: He was.

454
00:55:39.630 → 00:55:40.260
Justin Donne: He was hemlock.

455
00:55:40.290 → 00:55:40.710
Michael Schein: Yes, I.

456
00:55:41.280 → 00:55:49.620
Justin Donne: couldn’t you know contrary and ideas, but I think also that sort of an annoying demeanor probably helped them say let’s just get.

457
00:55:49.650 → 00:56:01.110
Michael Schein: rid of the sweater that play there’s a play called the clouds, which is a comedy Aristophanes where it’s all making fun of Socrates and it shows how he was perceived that about like yeah he was.

458
00:56:01.140 → 00:56:02.400
Michael Schein: Really, a new one, but.

459
00:56:03.030 → 00:56:06.270
Michael Schein: yeah I think though that to get out of the weeds for a minute.

460
00:56:08.070 → 00:56:15.360
Michael Schein: I think real questioning threatens these people, so I don’t know how you feel about Tony robbins and it’s almost irrelevant, but he’s a.

461
00:56:16.950 → 00:56:26.220
Michael Schein: he’s a professional guru you know I mean he makes money by getting people into a heightened state and getting them to think he is larger than life.

462
00:56:26.820 → 00:56:33.030
Michael Schein: So it was really telling that me to movement now because of the me to stuff you know what i’m referring to, so this woman got up.

463
00:56:33.720 → 00:56:41.310
Michael Schein: And said to her he questioned because he gives all this relationship advice what Why is he giving relationship, because he knows about everything he’s like a God he knows.

464
00:56:41.640 → 00:56:43.320
Michael Schein: From relationships to money.

465
00:56:43.590 → 00:56:47.010
Michael Schein: isn’t engineering today the guy knows everything about everything which I.

466
00:56:47.820 → 00:56:53.100
Michael Schein: always strikes me as a little weird so this woman called him out and said, you know listen, you know.

467
00:56:53.640 → 00:56:59.700
Michael Schein: I forgot what she said, but basically questioned him and he gave one of his stock answers and she questioned them again and question, a man.

468
00:57:00.390 → 00:57:09.090
Michael Schein: And he was like pushing her down the aisle he was so agitated that she didn’t just accept his wine and and prostrate.

469
00:57:09.690 → 00:57:24.780
Michael Schein: herself before him, you know and because we’re in this me to moment it bit him in the backside but let’s put that aside, when the great man and the powers that be have the little kids and you know i’m not sure you’re wearing any clothing.

470
00:57:25.050 → 00:57:28.050
Michael Schein: No, no really I don’t think you’re wearing clothing, no, no, actually.

471
00:57:28.380 → 00:57:30.480
Michael Schein: Those aren’t invisible clothing, but you’re naked.

472
00:57:31.590 → 00:57:33.150
Michael Schein: People in power don’t like that.

473
00:57:33.630 → 00:57:42.270
Justin Donne: No, they don’t they don’t this this whole speak truth to power i’ve learned the hard way they hate that they they do not like speak truth to power they like to be in their.

474
00:57:42.570 → 00:57:46.650
Justin Donne: In their circle of fiction that they’ve created that the illusion that they’ve created.

475
00:57:47.280 → 00:57:57.570
Justin Donne: No matter how divergent it is from reality could be only a little bit, but they don’t like any kind of questioning of you know here, take a look, take a look, take a look no they don’t like that at all.

476
00:57:57.660 → 00:57:59.370
Michael Schein: You can avoid losing your head.

477
00:57:59.850 → 00:58:02.100
Michael Schein: that’s a really great way to amass power of.

478
00:58:02.700 → 00:58:09.840
Justin Donne: Oh yeah for sure for sure I did that once on a very small scale, when I was in journalism school at mudville in Chicago and I was being.

479
00:58:10.230 → 00:58:15.570
Justin Donne: Being a recalcitrant student, I did not like the inverted pyramid I did not like.

480
00:58:15.600 → 00:58:16.020
Michael Schein: A really.

481
00:58:16.710 → 00:58:19.230
Justin Donne: Forced writing style, where it was just like.

482
00:58:19.470 → 00:58:32.160
Justin Donne: I also did not like being assigned what to look for i’m like I thought I was going to go out and find out what like the truth is, what is the reality not being told what to do so anyway, so I was no good at eds eventually why I switched out of that.

483
00:58:32.910 → 00:58:48.270
Justin Donne: But I was at one point taken out into the hallway and screamed at by Professor Bob mcclory the late Bob mcclory who’s who’s a wonderful kind man, he was a he was an ex priest in the Catholic Church, who left because he fell in love with a nun.

484
00:58:48.660 → 00:58:48.930
Justin Donne: And they.

485
00:58:49.470 → 00:58:51.210
Michael Schein: lived happily ever after like Martin Luther.

486
00:58:51.660 → 00:58:57.150
Justin Donne: yeah so it was just as he says, he’s a nice guy always wear sweaters he was like sent shaved Santa.

487
00:58:57.180 → 00:59:03.390
Justin Donne: You know, with my right blue eyes and you know so, is it, but he took me out in the hallway.

488
00:59:04.290 → 00:59:12.510
Justin Donne: Of that building and just screamed at me and his face turn tomato red and one of the reasons that he kept getting irritated.

489
00:59:12.720 → 00:59:20.190
Justin Donne: was because I was not getting agitated at all, because I actually did not care, I said look i’ll just transfer onto the stupid major if.

490
00:59:20.490 → 00:59:27.270
Justin Donne: If this is what I have to do, and so you just but he just got so angry and he looked at one point he looked at me he’s like.

491
00:59:27.990 → 00:59:39.360
Justin Donne: you’re so unflappable but he was like red and screening people started looking from other classrooms thinking is everything okay in here and that’s the thing we did is I just I just was like calm cool and collected.

492
00:59:39.780 → 00:59:44.610
Justin Donne: just looking i’m saying okay my writing sucks okay yeah the grant okay okay.

493
00:59:45.720 → 00:59:46.260
Michael Schein: Well, we.

494
00:59:46.440 → 00:59:59.970
Michael Schein: were lucky to be in in a country, at least for now where i’m while i’m in the United States and England is this shame, at least for now, where you can take a bold stand.

495
01:00:01.140 → 01:00:12.480
Michael Schein: And and not get killed for it, so you know there’s a time and a place, I mean if you’re taking bold stands and an oppressive State obviously that’s that takes a lot more courage, but you know.

496
01:00:13.290 → 01:00:22.050
Michael Schein: yeah I mean if it’s if you really wanted to stay in that program that may not have been the best thing to do right but, but if you’re a hype artist or a marketer.

497
01:00:23.730 → 01:00:34.530
Michael Schein: Like if I had worked for Gary van der chuck and did that article publicly I would have gotten fired or if I depended on him in some way or needed to hire him for a conference, but I didn’t have much to lose.

498
01:00:34.860 → 01:00:40.230
Michael Schein: And if you can find the video of his response to me it’s very funny because in the beginning, he was very coherent.

499
01:00:40.620 → 01:00:46.440
Michael Schein: But by the end he was basically talking about how successfully wise how much money he had he was really incoherent he was he was kind of sweating.

500
01:00:46.800 → 01:00:54.240
Michael Schein: And I think it’s because he’s really not used to being questioned in that way you know and the good news was.

501
01:00:54.810 → 01:01:04.140
Michael Schein: I have nothing to be scared of because there’s enough market share to go around so all of Gary van der chuck fans may have hated me and they did.

502
01:01:04.710 → 01:01:18.330
Michael Schein: But who cares there’s millions of people, and if I get half of half of 1% of them to be diehard followers of me i’m still not as big as danger chuck is you know, but I have a really, really, really good career because.

503
01:01:18.360 → 01:01:21.300
Justin Donne: I knew, but not need or in race so.

504
01:01:23.730 → 01:01:37.890
Michael Schein: None of these are blanket statements you need to use you don’t you know you wouldn’t use a butter knife to cut open, you know, a box, but it’s really good for spreading butter like they’re all They all need there I don’t know what that analogy was but.

505
01:01:40.320 → 01:01:40.770
Justin Donne: it’s not.

506
01:01:41.040 → 01:01:42.480
Justin Donne: ideal for cutting rights open.

507
01:01:42.750 → 01:01:48.060
Michael Schein: But, but you know appointing it isn’t good for spreading butter, so I mean you got into context is everything.

508
01:01:49.170 → 01:02:00.270
Justin Donne: context is everything great so what so what single strategy are you best known for let’s say in in micro fame media because we’ve we’ve talked a lot about the book strategies for us to use what about you, what do you best known for.

509
01:02:00.930 → 01:02:12.570
Michael Schein: I mean right now i’m known I guess for height for that word for the bucket of 12 strategies, I mean for a long time, I was known as that that picking the fight with Gary van der chuck guy and then I went on to pick a fight with Simon cynics to pick a fight with Tony robbins.

510
01:02:12.900 → 01:02:19.470
Michael Schein: Like i’m very proud Tony robbins some PR people call the forbes to complain about me.

511
01:02:19.980 → 01:02:34.350
Michael Schein: And I got a letter an email from forbes but it turned out everything in my article totally checked out so there was nothing that they could do and he’s like notoriously litigious you know, so I kind of became this taker down or of like gurus which which I got known for.

512
01:02:35.310 → 01:02:36.330
Justin Donne: legit killer.

513
01:02:36.660 → 01:02:46.050
Michael Schein: yeah people really love them before me concept I known for that, but I think i’m really happy because I think, especially with the release of the book.

514
01:02:46.920 → 01:02:53.310
Michael Schein: The interplay of the strategies has has just sort of i’ve kind of become known as the height man i’m like the new flavor flavor you know what I mean.

515
01:02:53.610 → 01:02:56.310
Justin Donne: yeah yeah yes, which is, which is totally cool yeah I.

516
01:02:56.310 → 01:02:57.570
Michael Schein: Just need to get a big clock.

517
01:02:57.660 → 01:02:58.320
Michael Schein: o’clock around.

518
01:02:58.860 → 01:02:59.580
Justin Donne: The big clock.

519
01:02:59.610 → 01:03:00.990
Justin Donne: Maybe get a jacket or.

520
01:03:01.200 → 01:03:01.530
Justin Donne: You know.

521
01:03:01.560 → 01:03:18.000
Justin Donne: And all that so so how about your number one best strategy for 2021 22 as we go in and start easing up into one pandemic going into another one is the alien start to invade us and reveal, but they are the ones who came up with the RNA technology to save us from.

522
01:03:18.240 → 01:03:20.970
Justin Donne: coronavirus yeah to volcano.

523
01:03:21.210 → 01:03:22.020
Michael Schein: yeah exactly.

524
01:03:22.380 → 01:03:26.220
Justin Donne: Exactly so So what about your your thing that you’re implement what are you doing now, what are you working.

525
01:03:26.220 → 01:03:28.560
Michael Schein: On i’m well in terms of strategies i’m.

526
01:03:28.620 → 01:03:39.060
Michael Schein: i’m really working on, I mean there’s a lot of things i’m working on, I mean i’m going out and teaching these concepts, now that I can speak again i’m really focused beyond the agency work i’m really spreading this message, because I do think it’s important for.

527
01:03:40.290 → 01:03:48.690
Michael Schein: You know, I was really blown away by how many people lately have been conned by really bad ideas and i’ll just come out and say it.

528
01:03:49.200 → 01:03:58.530
Michael Schein: Our capital was stormed by people from our own country, and people are so scared by the charismatic leader at the Center that they’re pretending it didn’t happen like that bothers me a lot.

529
01:03:59.190 → 01:04:11.610
Michael Schein: And that’s done through hype, so I think it’s really important for me to go around and speak to and give workshops, so that people, whether they’re in large companies trying to make a change or small companies or.

530
01:04:12.090 → 01:04:20.910
Michael Schein: causes or whatever that those people can be armed to further and bring attention to good stuff valuable stuff.

531
01:04:21.240 → 01:04:33.270
Michael Schein: So i’m I want to get you know i’m starting to get back on the speaking circuit and want to do more of that and working hard on that workshop in terms of strategies for me something i’m working on it’s there’s a strategy in the book called.

532
01:04:34.320 → 01:04:47.580
Michael Schein: Well it’s it’s packaging, I mean it’s it’s there was a quote by the foremost experts of propaganda a proud kindness and errands and they say the essence of propaganda is a well designed package so we think of packaging is.

533
01:04:50.040 → 01:05:06.780
Michael Schein: packages like like our logo or a wrapping paper whatever, but really what packaging means is that you figure out what you are and what you stand for, and you almost create a cartoon version of yourself, like you, don’t leave the House you don’t have one piece of thing out there.

534
01:05:07.230 → 01:05:16.350
Michael Schein: That doesn’t reflect that like Andy warhol never didn’t have his White wig he never spoke in complete sentences when he went out of the House, maybe that his closest friends.

535
01:05:16.770 → 01:05:29.100
Michael Schein: His factory, you know was covered in tin foil and aluminum foil everything about him was here’s the say that his closest friends, sometimes I just really love getting home and taking off my Andy warhol suit.

536
01:05:29.490 → 01:05:32.400
Michael Schein: Because he knew he knew you couldn’t just show up.

537
01:05:32.910 → 01:05:36.600
Michael Schein: To art openings dress like warhol and then be seen getting kitty litter.

538
01:05:37.860 → 01:05:51.240
Michael Schein: You know, which is funny that you know Glenn Danzig, who was the singer of the misfits and Danzig this Prince of darkness guy there’s this picture that just went viral because he’s coming out of a store holding kitty litter that’s why I thought of that, and it was no income.

539
01:05:51.300 → 01:05:54.120
Justin Donne: And, to be fair i’ve seen Marilyn manson out of makeup.

540
01:05:55.470 → 01:05:56.580
Michael Schein: and not a pretty sight.

541
01:05:56.670 → 01:05:57.630
Justin Donne: yeah that was weird.

542
01:05:58.260 → 01:06:06.810
Michael Schein: that’s what i’m saying, but but it’s beyond that it’s kind of like like like I look at you right like I don’t know what you’re like in your in your daily life and it’s not just about clothing, but.

543
01:06:07.800 → 01:06:16.440
Michael Schein: You wear a tie, even when we’re on a video thing you know we’re smoking jacket and and and it’s it’s creating this image of yourself so so like.

544
01:06:17.100 → 01:06:28.260
Michael Schein: I want to get what I want to work on is becoming the hype man in everything I do right and i’ve not been as good at that, as I should be right, like my my background here, I have these.

545
01:06:28.740 → 01:06:37.500
Michael Schein: horror comics in the background, but what I really should have is pictures of all the hype artist, I admire I shouldn’t be wearing this shirt right now I should you know.

546
01:06:39.780 → 01:06:52.170
Michael Schein: Everything about my presentation, should be the equivalent of Andy warhol my silver wig and I think with the pandemic i’d let that slip a little, and I really want to.

547
01:06:52.590 → 01:06:55.410
Justin Donne: Come I think a lot of people, a lot of people have let that slip.

548
01:06:55.680 → 01:07:09.090
Justin Donne: During a pandemic and i’m not always you know, sometimes like if I if I do a live video like if if i’ll go on Facebook or instagram live I just whatever I I happen to be wearing I don’t I don’t go to any trouble and.

549
01:07:09.930 → 01:07:12.000
Michael Schein: Again it’s not all about clothes it’s about all of it.

550
01:07:12.030 → 01:07:12.870
Justin Donne: Like it’s the whole.

551
01:07:13.620 → 01:07:17.310
Michael Schein: Give soundbite answers all the time, I mean you know.

552
01:07:17.310 → 01:07:24.120
Michael Schein: or Alfred hitchcock you could draw the little thing of you can you do exactly who it is right, I knew it was Alfred hitchcock.

553
01:07:24.600 → 01:07:25.770
Justin Donne: And I, and I am not.

554
01:07:26.220 → 01:07:34.110
Justin Donne: necessarily a you know, an expert at this, as you are so there’s there’s things i’m working on now as i’m reading the book and getting stuff out of it so i’ll be.

555
01:07:34.140 → 01:07:42.390
Justin Donne: i’ll be making tweaks and modifications there without compromising you know my identity and who, I am i’ll be This is my weakest one honestly, this is my weakest one.

556
01:07:42.390 → 01:07:43.140
I.

557
01:07:44.760 → 01:07:48.990
Michael Schein: There have been periods in my life, where i’ve been graded it, but you asked what i’m gonna you know do.

558
01:07:49.020 → 01:07:50.850
Michael Schein: Going forward, this is my my hype.

559
01:07:50.910 → 01:07:51.900
Justin Donne: This is the right yeah.

560
01:07:51.960 → 01:07:55.380
Michael Schein: You know, going for it, especially if i’m gonna be speaking and.

561
01:07:55.440 → 01:07:56.850
Michael Schein: Yang myself as a public.

562
01:07:56.850 → 01:07:57.810
Michael Schein: figure in that way.

563
01:07:57.840 → 01:08:05.580
Justin Donne: You know, and I have a couple a couple suggestions when we’re when we’re done that might be useful to put you, together with some people I know.

564
01:08:05.910 → 01:08:14.280
Justin Donne: So let’s finish off by how do we learn more about your proven process, in other words, I think the best thing for people to do is to go buy a copy of this book.

565
01:08:14.550 → 01:08:16.200
Michael Schein: that’s that’s certainly the best thing.

566
01:08:16.410 → 01:08:16.710
Justin Donne: Okay.

567
01:08:17.070 → 01:08:21.480
Justin Donne: Where can where can they get it where’s the best place for them to get it Amazon bookshops.

568
01:08:21.540 → 01:08:22.680
Michael Schein: yeah you know i’m.

569
01:08:23.700 → 01:08:34.650
Michael Schein: Certainly Amazon is Amazon right, I mean you type the hype and book in the book comes to your door in a few days and and that’s just the easiest way to do it, especially in a pandemic.

570
01:08:35.370 → 01:08:48.030
Michael Schein: Not every bookstore is carrying everything, although a lot of them are carrying this, but you know i’m a big supporter of bookstores so if your bookstore does carry and certainly buy it and, if not order it, you know but i’m.

571
01:08:49.590 → 01:08:52.860
Michael Schein: selfishly, however, that thing gets in your hand a.

572
01:08:52.980 → 01:08:54.720
Michael Schein: little help you know we write things.

573
01:08:55.080 → 01:08:58.260
Justin Donne: it’s the right thing for it to be renewed so yeah it’d be it’d be awesome.

574
01:08:58.590 → 01:09:05.580
Justin Donne: it’s definitely worth it it’s why you’re here it’s why I invited you here because I first was one of your readers I was first a fan, and then, and then I.

575
01:09:05.820 → 01:09:16.350
Justin Donne: And then I thought to reach out to you what’s the worst that could happen you you ignore or say no, and that’s cool but luckily you didn’t and So here we are, so that is that’s amazing so.

576
01:09:16.380 → 01:09:21.510
Michael Schein: i’m an admirer review, I looked into your stuff and it was so compelling I wouldn’t have said yes to everybody so.

577
01:09:21.540 → 01:09:31.800
Justin Donne: Oh that’s that’s quite an honor so thank you so much for that and also thank you very much for being here today, thank you for sharing your your wisdom your experience your stories and.

578
01:09:32.370 → 01:09:36.990
Justin Donne: of yourself and your energy, so thank you so much, this has been justin for just an answer.

579
01:09:37.590 → 01:09:45.270
Justin Donne: We are cultural creatives fulfilling our human potential so don’t forget to pick up your copy of the hype handbook so that you can.

580
01:09:45.780 → 01:09:55.710
Justin Donne: protect yourself from these techniques, but also so that you can leverage and use them to further your own life your career, whatever it is, in an honest and ethical way.

WEBVTT

1
00:00:03.120 --> 00:00:17.279
Justin Donne: hey this is justin from justin answer, and we are here as cultural creative seeking to fulfill our human potential that's the whole tagline that's the whole mission that's the whole purpose and on that note, I have a.

2
00:00:17.910 --> 00:00:20.130
Justin Donne: author of renowned here named.

3
00:00:20.160 --> 00:00:31.080
Justin Donne: Michael F shine now he wrote a book called the hype handbook now before anybody gets over excited and says what is that all about hype, what are you talking about.

4
00:00:31.710 --> 00:00:41.550
Justin Donne: Because you know cultural creatives we're all about real we're all about having you know real things, there is a very important reason for it because.

5
00:00:42.570 --> 00:00:48.570
Justin Donne: There is, of course, the people out there who use these techniques for evil let's just say.

6
00:00:49.500 --> 00:00:55.380
Justin Donne: But why not be able to leverage the same techniques for a good purpose let's say for a.

7
00:00:55.800 --> 00:01:06.180
Justin Donne: A charity, a good cause that you're running like I don't know cats protection is near and dear to my heart, because I love cats, as you know, so why not be able to leverage those techniques.

8
00:01:06.720 --> 00:01:15.540
Justin Donne: For good there's a couple more reasons, though, why he's here today and i'm going to ask him about this, and hopefully he'll be able to know, and that is that.

9
00:01:17.040 --> 00:01:26.070
Justin Donne: If you know these techniques let's say you're not into business at all you're just you know you're just chillin at home, you should still read the book, because if you know these things.

10
00:01:27.570 --> 00:01:37.770
Justin Donne: And it's like a protective coating around you then all of a sudden, you can spot it when it's being done to you in the media, or by politicians or by propagandists or whoever it is.

11
00:01:38.880 --> 00:01:47.520
Justin Donne: And that doesn't mean that you're immune to it, it doesn't mean that you ignore it, or you don't like music anymore, but what it means is you can now make a choice you can say.

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Justin Donne: I still like that it's still awesome i've certainly done that, or you can say hmm they're using those techniques and they're a bit slimy so you can stay away from them so.

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Justin Donne: Welcome to the show Michael I don't know if you thought of that ancillary benefit of a protective coating by learning these methods, but.

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Justin Donne: let's talk about that and much more welcome.

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Michael Schein: thanks for having me yeah I mean not only did I think of the benefit, and one of the reasons I wrote the book was because this thing that i'm calling hype, which will discuss.

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Michael Schein: really just has a lot to do with how human beings and groups respond to stimuli and for a variety of reasons, a lot of the scummy people are better at it.

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Michael Schein: And it just really bugged me that I was seeing all of these people hopping garbage and and convincing people to go around with it, while all of the people, creating great.

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Michael Schein: creative work great causes great businesses struggle with it so much, I really wanted to make the case that not only can you protect yourself against the bad guys.

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Michael Schein: But you can sort of retool those strategies in a very ethical way and I honestly that was my moral imperative for writing the book that became very, very important to me, especially with the latest sort of things we've been seeing going on in the news and whatnot and.

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Justin Donne: And that's, the reason I was drawn to your book and that I read it, and then I reached out to you, you, you know it's for disclosure, you did not come to me through an agent through you didn't reach it, you didn't come to me through any of those channels.

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Justin Donne: Like some some people do, although, as most people will realize my podcast is not this stressed out weekly or bi weekly thing because.

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Justin Donne: I don't want to have to fill these slots, with just anybody and just splatter someone on there because he's willing to come on and blather on on the podcast I really want to find.

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Justin Donne: People who have significance, who have a high impact, I believe in, which is why I wanted to at least read most of your book I haven't finished it I apologize, but read, most of it before having you on here.

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Justin Donne: Because it's so important to me and there's but there's another reason I wanted you on here and it's something we can talk about a little bit, and that is that.

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Justin Donne: There is someone out there, I think he calls himself the contra printer and he started this thing where he's basically doing an expose a of the techniques of.

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Justin Donne: calls the contra printers now I happen to know the man who designed and originated the format.

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Justin Donne: That this guy is saying, if you see people using this format, it means they're a con artist.

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Justin Donne: Now there's a fallacy in this young man's law and I admire the fact that Mr entrepreneur is trying to expose people who are taking advantage of people and ripping them off.

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Justin Donne: But there's a fallacy and his logic, and that is that just because someone is using those techniques, does it mean that they are a con artist, maybe all current artists use that technique, but just because the technique is in use doesn't mean there's a con going on.

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Michael Schein: I should also say, I mean this is going to be controversial, but there's a fine line between a con artist and an entrepreneur, and what I mean by that is.

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Michael Schein: You know, we hear these stories that we lionize like there's this famous story about Bill Gates selling dos for 100 grand or something and then saying Okay, now we gotta go design and operating system, you know so he basically on somebody.

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Michael Schein: I heard that but because he became Bill Gates and because he had the goods to back it up.

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He.

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Michael Schein: We actually like lionized that story, so I think i'm not saying you should why at all, but what I am saying is it's just funny to think about the fact, who is it that we consider entrepreneurs and it's usually the people who don't have the stuff at the end to back it up.

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Michael Schein: it's like like a Ponzi scheme where they're selling selling selling and then, when you pull the curtain back in the wizard of Oz it's just an old man.

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Justin Donne: And then there's also showmanship involved in that I mean right otherwise ilan musk wouldn't have gone and Saturday night live woody is he was pretty good it was it.

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Justin Donne: was pretty good, but if there was no showmanship necessary and entrepreneurship, he wouldn't have bothered wasting his time on that show, but the the real point here is that there are techniques.

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Justin Donne: And then there are, how you use those techniques and the technique in and of itself is not evil or it cannot be evil, it is neither good nor bad it's the use that you put to it so just because somebody uses this.

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Justin Donne: format, for example, the entrepreneur did I says Oh, he must be trying to put a con over on you, which is not true because, again, I know, the man who originated that format for presentations.

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Justin Donne: And he's the furthest thing from a con artists in the world he's a very genuine absolutely high impact.

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Justin Donne: You know what you pay is what you get in fact he delivers a lot more, so he couldn't endorse them enough he's fantastic the man I learned it from, and I will use that and in fact guess what I used it in a context.

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Justin Donne: to sell the autism strategy for the City Council over here, so I just I picked that format and I borrowed it across industries from the whole.

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Justin Donne: sales and marketing and this and events to let's try and sell this strategy for three years strategy it's already finished now, but this three year strategy to help you know some some disadvantaged people in our local community and it worked.

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Justin Donne: brilliantly so it's the use that you put it tonight, what I have been successful without that strategic framework, maybe, maybe not and that's what I think is really important.

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Justin Donne: to learn, but also to use obviously ethically is my preference, so let me, let me ask you a question now about you so so what's been your biggest challenge in business and how did you overcome it.

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Michael Schein: I think there are so many, but I think the biggest challenge was that I.

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Michael Schein: Really never thought of myself as a business person I mean, I think, maybe that's why I was attracted to.

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Michael Schein: ideas like this we get in our own heads, so much so, I mean I excuse me, I always was a very or at least saw myself as kind of an artsy type kid like I wanted to write novels.

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Michael Schein: And after that I was really interested in in you know, like music, but like rock and roll and punk rock and wanted to play in bands.

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Michael Schein: And when I thought about the idea of being in business or going into business that just really didn't appeal to me so eventually just to get a job, just to make a living, I got a corporate job and I was there for a long time.

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Michael Schein: And I resented it the whole time, but what held me back was this idea that like Okay, I could write fiction every morning, you know and make it make it quote unquote that way, but if not I have to just sort of hate my life in this corporate job.

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Michael Schein: And when I started to like loosen the boundaries in my mind, and so you know, there are these words we put on things, business and this and that the other.

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Michael Schein: But really it's just a series of side doors, I mean if I can figure out ways to use my writing and use my creativity and combine that with some of the tools of business.

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Michael Schein: Why is that a bad thing, and I did that, and you know eventually started a business and, ultimately, it came full circle and led to me writing a book, which is what I always wanted to do so, but.

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Michael Schein: I think I was always in my own head, I think I was very black and white in my thinking it was either like be this artist, you know or or or or languish away in the corporate world, and I think I got my own way for a long time.

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Justin Donne: yeah I think a lot of people, a lot of people do I think.

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Justin Donne: I think i've been there myself, so what would you say, then, is the accomplishment that you're most proud of in.

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Justin Donne: Business so far.

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Michael Schein: i'm so proud of, of going out on my own, you know I mean I worked at that corporate job for three years, I learned a lot, you know I had this band.

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Michael Schein: In New York, and we did pretty well in every other way, besides making money, I mean we sold out venues, we did this, but I couldn't make a living at it and we broke up.

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Michael Schein: And I got this job and I started to do well there because i'm kind of a.

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Michael Schein: hard working guy.

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Michael Schein: And for three years, I really learned, it turned me into an adult but I was there, eight years.

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Michael Schein: And it was completely out of fear and I remember people used to say to me just send out one resonate you hate your job so much and I couldn't bring myself to do it, I had this weird mental block I thought i'd end up in a cardboard box I don't know.

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Michael Schein: So when I eventually went on my own and became a freelance copywriter and almost went broke in the process, but made it happen and.

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Michael Schein: There have been all these other accomplishments since that have been a.

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Michael Schein: Big big deal in terms of what I would have in the past thought was the biggest deal like publishing this book was a huge deal for me, I spoke to a huge audience in China, all of these things, but I think.

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Michael Schein: When I think about that initial sort of breaking through the wall and actually having the courage to go on my own.

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Michael Schein: The fact that i'm still doing that 10 years later I guess i'm i'm really, really proud of that, because it almost didn't happen.

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Justin Donne: yeah and that's that's you should be and and, most of us are proud of the things that you know almost didn't happen, but we made it it's it's it's almost like that.

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Justin Donne: little bit of a hero's journey type of thing the book we're talking about, by the way, is like it's called the hype handbook by Michael F shine and I highly endorse and recommended, otherwise you wouldn't be here talking about.

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Justin Donne: It so so so read it, and as as we go along you'll you'll probably get the flavor for why so.

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Justin Donne: How did having a core strategy for you play into achieving that accomplishment of because it was was it pure accident was it like Forrest gump all start a business, it almost didn't or did you have a core strategy to launch yourself and make that happen.

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Michael Schein: So this really great book called the quick moment by a guy named France Johansen and he talks about how all of these so called core strategies, if people have a core strategy when they start they almost inevitably fail and the people who succeed.

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Michael Schein: They make up their core strategy like they go backwards, they talk about how they got there as if it was planned all along and it almost never is, and the reason for that, and he gets into like.

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Michael Schein: almost like quantum physics, is that chaos theory is that everything's random you know, meaning.

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Michael Schein: You, there are a million unintended consequences to everything you do, and you can't predict the future, so my original I started with a core strategy my strategy was, I was in the.

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Michael Schein: BP oil industry at my in my corporate life, which is business process outsourcing, which is a fancy way of saying we ran call centers like customer service.

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Michael Schein: centers, and so I knew, when I was in that job that the writers, who understood that industry and who understood Telecom, we always had trouble getting them, so I always did the writing you know.

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Michael Schein: So I had this brilliant idea that I thought was just a no brainer a quote unquote like how could this fail.

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Michael Schein: I could become like the world's first BP oh and telecom copywriter because there was this huge need for that right.

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Michael Schein: It failed miserably right it bomb, but it wasn't a failure because I put myself out there as a tech writer and not a tech writer actually a like a marketing writer who dealt with technology.

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Michael Schein: And even though I didn't become known as that sort of BP oh copywriter I became known as a technology writer and then from there that got me and.

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Michael Schein: column it in and from the income I started writing about hype and then people started to like my marketing, so you know.

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Michael Schein: I think that um.

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Michael Schein: This idea that we're just blundering around in Defense I think it's more important to have a strategy you got to start somewhere.

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Michael Schein: Or else you're going to flounder all over so you should try to fool yourself that you have this strategy that's going to work, otherwise you'll never get started.

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Michael Schein: But in reality, what almost always happens is that you see unintended consequences and the people who are successful pick up on them and accelerate on them and that's most certainly what happened to me.

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Justin Donne: You know that makes sense there's there's a quote I don't remember who said it's I can't attribute it, but I remember hearing it many times about.

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Justin Donne: something to the effect that plans change but decisions don't so the decision to you know, become a successful writer that doesn't change, but what changes is the plans they go all over the place.

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Michael Schein: I heard that set a different way to so Neil gaiman via the fantasy.

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Justin Donne: i'm considering taking the his master.

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Justin Donne: class which.

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Michael Schein: yeah I took that it was fun as good as.

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Justin Donne: A good.

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Michael Schein: I mean you know sort I mean those master classes are all good but they're all very broad it's almost more like Jean Neil gaiman talk about writing you know, and I mean it.

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Justin Donne: Is yeah and I, and I I looked at dustin hoffman's on acting and I have to confess that.

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Justin Donne: They had pulled it so it's no longer available, so I had to get it another way, and so I got it another way, nuff said and I watched it and um and, at the end i'm like boy, am I glad I didn't pay for this, because.

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Michael Schein: they're all because it was exactly that is just like it might as well have been you know, Barbara walters interviewing.

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Justin Donne: For four hours because.

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Justin Donne: I don't think he was he's really that good of an act coach or teacher, he is of course one of the.

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Michael Schein: greatest actors ever.

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Justin Donne: right as a teacher, I was like.

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Justin Donne: Interesting fascinating for me to watch, especially considering you know I made it, I was just always fascinated to do it and but I can't possibly do that there's so many of these mass.

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Justin Donne: Mass things, but the one I was really considering is the is the Neil gaiman one and only just to strengthen my writing game pun intended.

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Michael Schein: Well, all that to say I mean he made a comment I forget if it was in the master class or somewhere else, but he basically said.

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Michael Schein: He always knew he wanted to tell stories and there was this mountain that was being a profession that he made his living writing stories.

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Michael Schein: And he would judge every activity by whether it got him closer or farther to that mountain so if someone offered him.

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Michael Schein: I don't know the lowest level job reading scripts he might take that because he would get to make some money analyzing story structures, but if someone offered him a higher paying job writing technical copy he would turn that down because it would take him farther away so he.

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Michael Schein: Had this rod.

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Michael Schein: and objective, but he.

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Michael Schein: He let himself wind, as long as he was getting closer to the mountaintop and I thought that I think that I think about that a lot I think that's a really good way to think about goals.

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Justin Donne: Are to rigidity and i've heard it said, like that in a very similar way actually.

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Justin Donne: And in fact.

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Justin Donne: Oh no I just realized I know where Neil gaiman got that.

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Michael Schein: Oh, really.

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Justin Donne: yeah I know where he got that from.

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Justin Donne: And I just remembered where he got that from there was a.

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Justin Donne: I don't know if this is too controversial to talk about here, but there was a there was a brief period of time where Neil gaiman was involved with and then, and then I think he ended his involved with i'm not sure, but is involved with.

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Michael Schein: Scientology I yeah I knew that I didn't is that, where that comes.

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Justin Donne: From that comes from that.

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Justin Donne: That comes from that because there's a concept that I like, which is the concept of the ideal scene, as part of a management structure, which is exactly what what he just explained there, which is you, is it is it getting you closer or further away to that the way it's phrased there.

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Michael Schein: Is an.

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Justin Donne: ideal scene so.

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Justin Donne: i'm one of these.

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Justin Donne: i've been accused of being pedantic so i'm one of these people that I when I remember i'm like I remember where he.

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Michael Schein: got that from.

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Justin Donne: So so as great as the old guy.

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Justin Donne: You know, he that that that piece of work was not original, but it is definitely some really good advice.

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Michael Schein: And I think I anthology.

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Michael Schein: As a people wouldn't be attracted to I think as a as a motivational you know, philosophy and and a set of you know.

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Michael Schein: Some of the positive thinking self help stuff and there's really good what's controversial is what they how they treat their people, as you know, money spigots you know what I mean like how they got delayed.

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Michael Schein: Because yeah.

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Justin Donne: Do they really it's again it's a lot of it is how much of that is is.

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Justin Donne: yeah spun in the media and.

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Michael Schein: it's hard to know i'm not an insider.

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Justin Donne: I don't think I don't really know without knowing that it really works, I think it's tough to judge like that, so I try to refrain from.

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Justin Donne: passing judgment because Do we really know.

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Michael Schein: Because I pass judgment actually I mean I take from anything I can find and that's kind of this book like if.

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Michael Schein: If I found a propaganda artist if I found something from Martin Luther King if it was the same organizing principle I would I would learn from it.

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Michael Schein: I think, where where it gets in trouble for all of these philosophies from the iron Rand stuff to the to the to some of the new woke movements to.

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Michael Schein: evangelical Christianity to hasidic Judaism, is when you have to follow a B, C D E, F G, all the way through Z and if you don't you're a heretic you know what I mean.

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Michael Schein: So you can't be like.

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Michael Schein: Scientology if someone is taking you away from the beliefs they're a suppressive person, and you have to cut them out of their life that's where it starts to get hairy so that's why I I tend not to be an issue you know Scientology.

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Justin Donne: Sure sure.

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Justin Donne: Right associate with that, but what I mean is, is even even that which i've heard, of course, in the media, I know people who will say well that's not that's not true, I mean, I think.

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Justin Donne: In fact, a couple famous marketers online like grant cardone and stuff will say that's not that's not true that's not a pop maybe maybe some people used that or did that but that's not forced upon you, and it's not something that we.

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Justin Donne: We require he says, I have friends and, in fact, in his last 10 X growth conference he interviewed some people you you wouldn't have thought really meshed with that philosophy.

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Justin Donne: And yet he's totally open to it so again i'm with a grain of salt on that I gotta pay raises big grains of salt, with everything you know everything I didn't you just got it yeah I agree so anyway.

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Justin Donne: Exactly so so about the so now that we're on the topic of.

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Justin Donne: The presentation of people presenting themselves, and all that so so would you share with us what are what are three to five key skills moves or techniques that protect against failure or that from the book basically maybe three.

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Justin Donne: Three things that we might learn in there that we could actually take away today.

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Michael Schein: yeah so it's worth giving a little bit of background about what what this book really is so it's called the hype handbook and the subtitle i'm going to read the dumbest more descriptive than the book but it's so long, I can't even remember it but.

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Michael Schein: kind of on purpose it's like i'm bored at file title but it's um.

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Michael Schein: yeah 12 indispensable success secrets from the world's greatest propagandist self promoters cult leaders mischief makers and boundary breakers, and I bring that up, not the plug my book, although that is certainly part of.

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Michael Schein: It but I bring that up because what I did in figuring this out, as I was pretty good at this this thing called hype, and I would always look at unconventional marketers we already touched on that right like instead of looking at the.

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Michael Schein: latest online marketing course I would say okay well how is it that.

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Michael Schein: Everyone, you know the grateful dead Tony robbins and Andy warhol all get people frothing at the mouth, you know crowds of thousands, what is it that they're doing right.

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Michael Schein: And I would study that and so when I when I decided to write the book I said, you know what i'm going to read all of these books.

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Michael Schein: On everyone from propagandists to cult leaders to really strong business people to.

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Michael Schein: People who lead causes, and I want to find out Are there things that unify them all, because if these people are just naturally good at, and when I say hype all that means is.

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Michael Schein: Any set of activities that gets a large number of people emotional so that you can move them to take a certain action right so, is it just that certain people are naturally good at that, if so, there was no strategy you just got to figure it out, you just got to develop the skills.

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Justin Donne: or born with it.

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Michael Schein: or be born with it even better, I mean even even even more scary but possible right or it could just be that you, you know learn in a you just sort of get better trial and error this and that right.

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Michael Schein: Or are there, deep psychological principles that repeat over and over again Are there things that human beings, because of the fact that our brains are not set up to respond accurately they're set up to help us survive.

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Michael Schein: And also because we're the most social animal in the history of the earth beyond and beyond anything you know, and we can talk about why that is, are there.

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Michael Schein: Things that we respond to timing in it turned out there really weren't there they're just like 12.

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Michael Schein: ways to get people to respond, the way you want them to that are based, and how we react so all That being said.

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Michael Schein: There are a few that I discussed that are sort of the cornerstone concepts so so one is human beings are much more easily attracted to and energized by being against something.

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Michael Schein: Then they are being for something and and obviously that's the tendency that's beyond behind our racism and sexism and bigotry and nationalism and.

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Michael Schein: Certainly not encouraging that, but the reality is that's the way we are so I remember working in the brooklyn writers space, which is this some.

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Michael Schein: Community for, as you would think serious brooklyn writers and everyone in there was a little bit you know quite liberal, you know, not a lot of makeup not a lot of flaunting of material goods, you know they work at the food co op in park slope.

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Michael Schein: You know so they're Obviously not.

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Michael Schein: Very commercial we minded people, but do you know how many PCs were in that place.

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Justin Donne: PCs is in computers.

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Michael Schein: Computers to write on of all the people in there.

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Justin Donne: 00 really.

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Michael Schein: Everyone has a.

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Michael Schein: 12 00 because these non brand oriented people are so against being a corporate drone and being you know that sort of thing that they'll buy an apple as the as their signature flag.

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Justin Donne: To show that they're not commercial Oh, I see yeah I haven't no.

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Michael Schein: yeah I sort of why, but my point is.

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Michael Schein: They aren't buying that apple they love apple they're buying apple because it says something about what they're not.

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Justin Donne: Oh right.

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Michael Schein: It says that they're not the person who fills out excel spreadsheets you know what I mean.

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Michael Schein: they're an apple owner there in artists they're not a you know someone who works on a computer all day meanwhile apple was at one point, the.

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Michael Schein: most valuable company in the world they're as corporate, as you can possibly get so.

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Michael Schein: they've done a great job so think about what they did they had those commercials in when Steve Jobs first came back in like 97 or whenever it was justin long was like the hip.

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Michael Schein: apple MAC guy and john hodgman was like the fat, you know guy with the mustache with the White button down shirt with the stains on it, he was the corporate world but PC you don't want to be that guy.

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Michael Schein: You know you don't want to be that no one thinks of himself as the boring corporate guy you want to be the hip artsy die right.

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Michael Schein: So people are very attracted to being against so it's important to pick a fight you don't have to pick a fight with a person I do that but, but that can sometimes bleed into being a troll.

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Michael Schein: pick a fight with an idea, take a bold stand and you'll be amazed how people bombed around you um another one is something I call you know i'm.

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Michael Schein: Creating a secret society, so what most hype artists and, by extension, the best promoters and marketers to do.

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Michael Schein: Is they make it seem like all of their success is happening on a grassroots level, so they make it seem like they're just getting millions of Twitter followers and instagram followers and whatever.

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Michael Schein: And the scary thing about that is that everyone who admires them tries to emulate them so they spend all this time tweeting and instagram and all day and don't understand why they're not growing or back when when I was.

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Michael Schein: playing in bands, they would just put up flyers all day and sort of wonder why they weren't getting famous right what what the best hype artists and marketers do.

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Michael Schein: Is they make it seem like that's all that's going on, and they do some of it, but what they're really doing is they're nurturing this group of really close friendships with influential people behind the scenes and they call on favors so it's a lot easier to.

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Michael Schein: You know, say to someone who has a 50,000 person following hey man, you know we've been friends, for a long time, could you send word out.

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Michael Schein: You know about my product to this group and do that five times in a two month period, and there are ways to do that, too, there are ways to start relationships like people.

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Michael Schein: Especially successful people like to be known for what most people don't recognize them for so like, for example, if there's a captain of industry.

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Michael Schein: Who paints on the weekend and very few people know that they paint on the weekend, if you praise their painting on Twitter or ask this either paintings on Twitter.

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Michael Schein: They will open up a friendship with you in a way that talking about their billions will never do.

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Justin Donne: Because then they'll just think that.

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Michael Schein: People that you want something from.

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Justin Donne: Well it's like Prince Charles he's a alpha painter and Gardner and he would much rather talk about that than any you know gossip or anything else so.

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Michael Schein: talk to him about that, and he will invite the most common common or into his drawing room to have a conversation with him.

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Michael Schein: That he would never do if you're talking about what's on the docket for Parliament, or whatever you know.

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Justin Donne: Well, no, he doesn't do governor but yeah I know what you mean.

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Michael Schein: No, no, no, but they you know they they they do, they do this paperwork stuff you know they have to like proceed.

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Michael Schein: You know the Queen, for example, has to do this speech that she didn't write you know.

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Michael Schein: yeah women sunshine sunshine on all these duties that they do you know what I mean whatever they are they.

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Justin Donne: Know they're not very interested in that, but.

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Justin Donne: Page gardening only right.

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Michael Schein: Even if you are interested in other words i'm really interested in my business, but if you were.

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Michael Schein: A 20 year old coming out of school and you come up to me and you say i'd really like to pick your brain about content marketing.

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Michael Schein: Okay, I mean that's an annoyance that I have to deal with, maybe i'll do it, maybe I won't depending on how busy I am, but if you say to me.

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Michael Schein: You know you mentioned on an interview that you write fiction in the mornings, and you mentioned that you, you know you really like bore hash and i'm a huge.

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Michael Schein: fan, in fact, they studied him in college and love to talk to you about your favorite short stories hmm now I don't make my living that way.

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Michael Schein: But, but when you asked me about my business which I do make my living at my cortisol levels go up because you know i've had people approach me like that, who were really just kissing my backside so they could get something from me, I was you know i've learned to be on.

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Michael Schein: guard about that.

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Michael Schein: Sure, but if you asked me about my personal interest i'm flattered that you took the time to listen and i'm talking about something i'm interested in i'll talk to anyone who.

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Michael Schein: You know, writes me about that on Twitter or instagram or whatever right, and this is something to keep in mind um I guess a third there are so many, but a third one, is something I call.

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Michael Schein: The milk before meat strategy so religions use this a lot.

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Michael Schein: So let's talk about Scientology right I don't know if this is just media or not, but let's just use the.

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Michael Schein: stereotype people say that when you're in Scientology for a really long time, and this has been documented in books like going clear by Lawrence Wright who's by all intensive a very good journalist you learn that Scientologists believe that.

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Michael Schein: You know that our negative emotions come from aliens who lived on the lip of a volcano now.

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Michael Schein: i'm not saying that's even a bad thing Every religion has weird stuff in fact that's more believable than some of the supernatural religions, however, if you walk to someone in the street and you said.

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Michael Schein: You know I could really help you out there are aliens that live on the lip of a volcano that are infesting your mind and you need to expel them you'd be like.

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Michael Schein: Okay, let me call 911 there's a madman you know coming up to me, however, if you say to them listen, you know i'm.

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Michael Schein: i'd love to tell you about some ideas you know there's this mountain.

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Michael Schein: That goal oriented you know I can teach you a system for achieving your goals, I mean you're a business person ready you interested in learning how to achieve your goals better yeah of course okay wonderful.

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Michael Schein: And then you give them a few tactics to help them wow that's really fascinating Oh, by the way, we're having a meeting.

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Michael Schein: Why don't you come and it doesn't look like a church, it looks like a self help seminar and you learn three things that helped your business.

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Michael Schein: Slowly but surely when they finally introduced the Aliens on the volcano if that's even what they teach it doesn't seem that weird because humans are very scared of big changes.

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Michael Schein: we're set up to win, something it departs very far from what we're used to that's like giving a little baby meat.

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Michael Schein: don't get sick.

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Michael Schein: But if you give a baby milk and then you give them smashed up bananas and then you get them smashed up beef and then you give them solid beef they.

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Michael Schein: They don't even notice it's happening so if you have an idea that's truly groundbreaking or unusual and you try to introduce it all at once, and you see people getting worked up and pushing you away, you can introduce the same idea in segments and they'll come along with you.

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Justin Donne: it's just trusting right.

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Michael Schein: yeah very.

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Justin Donne: interesting approach because.

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Justin Donne: I have heard.

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Justin Donne: It described and applied in other areas like I don't know if you ever read the book a separate piece by James.

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Michael Schein: I know that in elementary school.

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Michael Schein: A separate piece by the the one about the guy who gets pushed off, but the tree or whatever.

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Justin Donne: separate pieces is the.

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Justin Donne: What sticks in my mind, I read it, and now i'm not going to tell the world exactly how old I am, although I am Oh well over 40 years old, but this was an elementary school that I read.

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Justin Donne: This in the fourth grade so it's a long time ago, but I have a great memory, so I remember.

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Justin Donne: very clearly that it was about a school teacher who very gradually very, very gradually got the students to go from you know the pledge of allegiance to cutting up the flag making collages and eventually adopting and completely opposing political ideology.

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Michael Schein: yeah exactly that's that's that's the strategy.

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Justin Donne: And the strategy was it was very, very, very gradual or, as you say you know milk before me, but the other application to that and, like, for example in a positive ways after.

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Justin Donne: You know is that it, which proves that you know the system just can't take even good stuff to that abundance is a shot.

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Michael Schein: is good or bad doesn't matter it doesn't matter if it's if it's different than what you're used to.

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Justin Donne: that's all that's the one they were liberated the concentration camps after the Holocaust and there were obviously some people who were.

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Justin Donne: famished who were you know they had undergone starvation and the soldiers were instructed not to give them solid food, you know.

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Justin Donne: Professor that's yes, that would kill them so they were instructed by don't you just give them a little bit of soup.

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Justin Donne: And and and gradually build them back up so in many contacts, this sort of gradual approach is so applicable, but thank you for sharing those three really, really cool you know tips, I guess, or skills or things that we could do.

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Michael Schein: I want to say something no.

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Michael Schein: The gradual approach, this is a little bit counterintuitive if your idea is truly groundbreaking or weird or unusual, you should use the gradual approach.

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Michael Schein: If your idea is common in other words, a lot of times we're really good at what we do and we can provide a lot of value but there's not a huge margin of difference, so there are all these like business coaches and some of them might be fantastic at what they do.

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Michael Schein: But if you try to describe in words what's different about what they do if there's not that much to get coaching is coaching.

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Michael Schein: If that's the case you want to do the opposite, you want to seem as theatrical you know, in other words.

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Michael Schein: Use theater and look at Tony robbins right you go to a Tony robbins rally or an amway rally neither of what either of those people teaches is is.

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Michael Schein: It can be really useful but it's not really groundbreaking you know I mean it's all based on stuff that has existed before they bombard you with lights with sound with loud music with chanting another thing to do is use.

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Michael Schein: Science what they call ear candy and I can be consultants do that.

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Michael Schein: yeah the most common sense advice in the world if you put charts and.

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Michael Schein: figures and neuro epinephrine and different you know big words you know suddenly.

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Michael Schein: It gives you a veneer of authority that you can have noticed that i'm not saying this stuff should be bad what i'm saying is your grandpa could give you life changing advice and common sense language.

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Michael Schein: Thanks grandpa and you're not gonna pay you won't even treat them to a meal, but if someone says the same thing with charts and figures and.

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Michael Schein: Exploring scientific technology.

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Michael Schein: You know so it's funny it's the opposite of what you've what you'd expect.

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Michael Schein: In the more unusual and groundbreaking an idea is the more commonplace, you should.

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Justin Donne: Keep.

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Michael Schein: The least common place, you should make it more.

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Justin Donne: flamborough see, I have a rather.

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Justin Donne: Large vocabulary, so I keep I keep trying to be careful not to confuse people when I when I present or when I talked to them and potentially I shouldn't be so worried about it because it.

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Michael Schein: depends no but it depends, it depends, so if you're in a field.

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Michael Schein: You got to be clear that's not what I needed the person who does this fastest Simon senate right so Simon cynics and I write about this in the book Simon cynic is famous for start with why.

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Michael Schein: And he's a clear speaker right, I mean you gotta at the core people have to understand what you're saying that's not but what he'll do is.

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Michael Schein: his ideas are honestly not groundbreaking I mean he's saying start with why, first of all that's debatable and, second, of all.

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Michael Schein: Okay, and it's another way of saying do what you love you know what I mean it's not groundbreaking but the guy makes 100 grand to talk and and he's good he helps people right.

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Michael Schein: But watch him so first of all, if you see him like he has this kind of half British accent he wears these little spectacles, you would think that he was a professor of some.

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Justin Donne: yeah you guys never done anything, besides marketing.

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Michael Schein: He worked at ogilvy and Mather before he.

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Justin Donne: said i've gotten past that section.

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Michael Schein: Right so yeah so that's, the first thing, and if you hear.

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Michael Schein: me he did this thing about why millennials are like the worst generation, which is completely debunked global, but everyone just accepted it at face value and i'm not calling him a con artist his stuff is is fine it's good.

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Michael Schein: yeah but he always uses, you know the dopa mean gets fired in the mind and the neural pathways and this and that, I mean other people just be like God damn kids today they don't know what it's.

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Justin Donne: like to make a buck, you know what I mean like.

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Michael Schein: The millennials the neural pathways when they were given you know in you know reward systems for debt and it's like yeah you know, science and you suddenly yeah.

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Michael Schein: it's like it's like a doctor coming in in a white coat, so this is not an argument for being unclear.

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Michael Schein: An argument for using conspicuous signifiers of authority.

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Justin Donne: Interesting ya know so i'm glad you you clarified that because it's not it's, not that I need to just you know run roughshod with my geeky language on.

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Michael Schein: Talking and just let.

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Michael Schein: Let right.

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Justin Donne: You know hundred dollar words go, I still need to be clear with them it's just that I shouldn't shy away from selecting maybe a few of those to to to surround things and give it an air of authority.

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Michael Schein: But, but again, not I mean you don't have to say.

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Michael Schein: You know you don't have to use a $10 word when a $1 word will do, but if you can back up what you're staying with some kind of obscure research that could or could not be used huh for will give credence to it, rather than if you just set it out right.

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Justin Donne: yeah.

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Michael Schein: No, I understand, though, what.

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Michael Schein: charge show a figure show you know, whatever.

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Justin Donne: yeah and those are those are easy to come by because you know i've got those associations that send me all those charts every.

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Justin Donne: Rights I could borrow those and start using those and say, well, the Institute of leadership and management.

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Justin Donne: 100% this that and that.

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Justin Donne: You know quoted incited and this that and the other thing.

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Michael Schein: Is that cortisol is activated in your system which makes people less.

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Michael Schein: likely to buy from you notice, I said that a few minutes ago right, I mean, then, that gives me that makes em now it's true.

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Michael Schein: But it makes me sound like an expert.

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Justin Donne: yeah when I was going with.

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Justin Donne: That have a scientist right so right so now that we've talked about a few more of these techniques that you you've you've taught us how has leveraging these you know proven strategies affected your earning capacity let's, in other words, have you use these.

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Michael Schein: Well yeah I mean it, I mean that's what I do for a living, so I I am I was talking about that corporate job I haven't how I was scared to leave and I had that idea that I was going to be a corporate copywriter.

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Michael Schein: or a marketing copywriter.

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Michael Schein: And because I was a good writer and because I had some business knowledge or I shouldn't say business knowledge industry knowledge I figured I would just leave my job, this was like 10 years ago I figured I would just leave my job and start.

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Michael Schein: You know, making money and I had a year's worth of savings and I almost went broke, I mean I couldn't sell I didn't know how to sell.

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Michael Schein: or really market for that matter, because I, you know people who hired me would rehire me, but I just couldn't get any flow of leads, so what happened was.

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Michael Schein: I I I thought back at a certain point, I was, I was it was actually funny I walked by the old club that we used to play at just randomly the neighborhood changed a lot, so I was having a meeting.

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Michael Schein: With a friend of mine, who was a consultant in the lower East side it's all like bankers and lawyers now but back when I was playing in bands, it was like the.

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Michael Schein: Where all the rock and roll stuff was happening, and so I walked by that old club and I remembered how we used to sell it out all the time, like on a Wednesday night, and we would do it by hyping stuff up, we never used the word marketing.

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Michael Schein: But we would do things like like, for example, we've got our we've talked our way on to showtime at the Apollo because we knew we would be booed off, you know.

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Michael Schein: And then we got all kinds of press around that so we would do things like that all the time.

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Michael Schein: And and we're really, really, and I particularly is really good at it and I was like Why am I so bad at marketing now and it was because I had become.

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Michael Schein: Corporate I was, I was, I was studying a B testing and sales funnels and this and that and I forgot.

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Michael Schein: That at the core attracting attention and getting people emotional is about really deep psychological stuff it's about benevolent mischief you know.

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Michael Schein: So I said, you know what i'm going to change my approach, I mean i'm going to try to use this and I did, and it worked like a charm I mean I started.

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Michael Schein: Doing kind of benevolently miss gbs stuff and taking on that puckish sort of role and I started doing really well with the writing business and then it turned into an agency so.

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Michael Schein: What I do is I you know i'm a big reader but i'm not everyone's a big reader now that's like a big fat and I think that's a great fad but, but at the same time.

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Michael Schein: it's like everyone reads the same kind of business books and I think they're worth reading, but like I also think there's a lot of other great stuff out there, so i'll read these obscure books on like crowd psychology or like brainwashing or i'll read.

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Michael Schein: You know biographies of these really unusual counterintuitive people and then i'll conduct experiments and my rules are, it has to be ethical and make people's lives better you know what I mean, and there can be deception involved.

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Michael Schein: yeah and if I hit those drills i'll do these little experiments and if they fail i'll discard them, but if they succeed, not only do they become part of the package that that we use for our clients and for ourselves, they become one of the strategies, I teach you know, in the book.

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Michael Schein: And in workshops so yeah I mean it's it's it's all the money i've made in the last decade has to do with stuff yeah.

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Justin Donne: that's cool and now you're passing it forward with this remarkable book The height and book, so that we can all take advantage of that in an ethical way, please, I mean it's only request we can't police it, you can obviously use it to con people and create a create nastiness but.

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Michael Schein: I should say, the reason I feel comfortable putting this book out there, and you knowing it will be used ethically is because, frankly, the bad guys already get it that's true.

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Michael Schein: they've done experiments on people with antisocial personality disorder and that's this basket of Disorders that includes like malignant narcissism psychopathic and sociopathy.